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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/7/19 11:23 AM, Billy O'Neal (VC
LIBS) wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p>> The library doesn't need to assume. An example
implementation (ignoring support for non-char types) could be:
[…]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That does not do the correct thing because
the locale on the target is often not the locale when
compiling. At compile time we usually consider our ‘execution
character set’ to be the ASCII subset for maximum resistance
to changes in locale at runtime, but the compiler will
generally pass through more strict settings if the user has
set them.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
This is exactly why the original wording I proposed stated that the
result is unspecified if the run-time locale encoding is not
compatible with the encoding used for the execution character set.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p>> I think the Windows 10 comment is only relevant with
respect to the run-time locale and choice of encoding for the
console/terminal. Execution character set is independent of
both of those.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is dependent with both of those in that
the choice of execution character set is constrained by the
environment in which the program will run.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Indeed. But if a programmer compiles their code with
/execution-charset:utf-8, it seems a clear indication that they
intend to constrain the environment in which the program is run to
one that supports UTF-8 (e.g., Windows 10, with UTF-8 ACP, and the
new Windows Terminal). I recognize that such a deployment target
is an uncommon reality today, but that is a direction to be
encouraged.<br>
</p>
<p>Tom.<br>
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Billy3</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Tom
Honermann <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tom@honermann.net"><tom@honermann.net></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 10:58:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Billy O'Neal (VC LIBS) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bion@microsoft.com"><bion@microsoft.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org">lib@lists.isocpp.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"><lib@lists.isocpp.org></a>; Corentin
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:corentin.jabot@gmail.com"><corentin.jabot@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> C++ Library Evolution Working Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org"><lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:unicode@isocpp.open-std.org">unicode@isocpp.open-std.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:unicode@open-std.org"><unicode@open-std.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [isocpp-lib] [SG16-Unicode]
[isocpp-lib-ext] [time.duration.io] : Is stream insertion
behavior locale dependent when Period::type is micro?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="background-color:#FFFFFF">
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 11/6/19 10:20 PM, Billy O'Neal
(VC LIBS) wrote:<br>
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<p>> That isn't what it (is intended to) say, nor how I
read it. </p>
<p>Then remove the qualifications about terminals or codecvt
facets and talk only about the execution character set,
and things are OK. (As Corentin’s PR does)</p>
<p>> The intent of the wording was to allow Microsoft to
use "µs" when the compiler is invoked with
/execution-charset:utf-8 and to use "us" otherwise.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Given that UTF-8 support is still a
rarely used user opt-in at this time only available on
recent versions of Windows 10, it isn’t an assumption the
library is going to be able to make soon (i.e. the next
decade)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The library doesn't need to assume. An example
implementation (ignoring support for non-char types) could be:<br>
</p>
<pre>template<class traits, class Rep, class Period><tt>
void print_fancy_suffix</tt><tt>(basic_ostream<char, traits>& os, const duration<Rep, Period>& d)</tt><tt>
{</tt><tt>
static const char micro_sign[] = "\u00B5s";</tt><tt>
if (as_unsigned(micro_sign[0]) == 0xC2</tt><tt>u &&</tt><tt>
as_unsigned(micro_sign[1]) == 0xB5u)</tt><tt>
{</tt><tt>
// execution character set smells like UTF-8.</tt><tt>
os << </tt><tt>d.count() << micro_sign;</tt><tt>
} else {</tt><tt>
// execution character set smells like bad.</tt><tt>
</tt><tt><tt>os << </tt><tt>d.count() << "us";</tt></tt><tt>
}</tt><tt>
}</tt>
</pre>
<p>There are, of course, better ways to do this if the compiler
has the ability to inform the library what the execution
character set really is (e.g., a predefined macro).</p>
<p>I'm not arguing for any particular choice on Microsoft's
part.<br>
</p>
<p>I think the Windows 10 comment is only relevant with respect
to the run-time locale and choice of encoding for the
console/terminal. Execution character set is independent of
both of those.<br>
</p>
<p>Tom.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Billy3</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Tom Honermann
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tom@honermann.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><tom@honermann.net></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 5:38:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Billy O'Neal (VC LIBS) <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:bion@microsoft.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
<bion@microsoft.com></a>; <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
lib@lists.isocpp.org</a> <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib@lists.isocpp.org></a>; Corentin <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:corentin.jabot@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<corentin.jabot@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> C++ Library Evolution Working Group <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org></a>; <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:unicode@isocpp.open-std.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
unicode@isocpp.open-std.org</a> <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:unicode@open-std.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<unicode@open-std.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [isocpp-lib] [SG16-Unicode]
[isocpp-lib-ext] [time.duration.io] : Is stream insertion
behavior locale dependent when Period::type is micro?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="background-color:#FFFFFF">
<div class="x_x_moz-cite-prefix">On 11/6/19 5:30 PM, Billy
O'Neal (VC LIBS) wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="x_x_MsoNormal">Corentin’s PR says “if char
(the execution encoding) can always represent µ for
your implementation, use that. Otherwise use u.” Which
means on my implementation where char can’t always
represent such a thing as that is locale dependent. we
will statically use u (and µ for wchar_t); but an
implementation that assumes char is UTF-8 could use µ.<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="x_x_MsoNormal">The LWG issue’s PR says “if the
stream can detect that it is targeting a console or
codecvt facet that don’t support µ, an implementation
may use u, otherwise they use µ”. But streams have no
means of doing that detection. (And the answer can
even change if someone changes the streambuf)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That isn't what it (is intended to) say, nor how I read
it. It states that the suffix is determined by the
execution character set (the character set used for string
literals and known at compile time); that is in the first
sentence. The second sentence acknowledges that if the
native character set (the run-time locale dependent
character set) lacks representation for the character,
then all bets are off with regard to how the character is
actually displayed (or converted by a codecvt facet).</p>
<p>The intent of the wording was to allow Microsoft to use
"µs" when the compiler is invoked with
/execution-charset:utf-8 and to use "us" otherwise.<br>
</p>
<p>Tom.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="x_x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_x_MsoNormal">Billy3</p>
<p class="x_x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Tom Honermann
<a class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tom@honermann.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><tom@honermann.net></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 5:14:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Billy O'Neal (VC LIBS) <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:bion@microsoft.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<bion@microsoft.com></a>; <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
lib@lists.isocpp.org</a> <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib@lists.isocpp.org></a>; Corentin <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:corentin.jabot@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<corentin.jabot@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> C++ Library Evolution Working Group <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org></a>; <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:unicode@isocpp.open-std.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
unicode@isocpp.open-std.org</a> <a
class="x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:unicode@open-std.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<unicode@open-std.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [isocpp-lib] [SG16-Unicode]
[isocpp-lib-ext] [time.duration.io] : Is stream
insertion behavior locale dependent when Period::type
is micro?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="background-color:#FFFFFF">
<div class="x_x_x_moz-cite-prefix">On 11/6/19 4:30 PM,
Billy O'Neal (VC LIBS) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">> Please read the
wording again. Note that it says that, if those
conditions are true, then the result is
unspecified. </p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal">If “the wording” means
the P/R of <a
href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcplusplus.github.io%2FLWG%2Fissue3314&data=02%7C01%7Cbion%40microsoft.com%7C371c6ae112934c8e66ca08d7630cd250%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637086779033889953&sdata=gfv7uzxwY5Ol8guxD0C179G6xnDBcdbt2qA%2FVrE3AyU%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="https://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/issue3314"
shash="g6iHpX12EKmR/MGRP1Fd5iiSyaBSaQxxHx0G5lcY3BGPY6+3iqrYNlsfRhe+oljJ8eukzqpXI5rIpymiX62kMTB/KkHLcyj0Rm9VbM8LaHSsosk2Qa12P5YvhOWJ2Zf6Ux+0QI0V15dSIg/V7ND/Rt82YnyXUs7Em0RWOKt0U0Y="
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/issue3314</a>,
the wording there implies that we must make some
effort to determine that the condition is true,
which in practice we cannot do because the
interface between streams and streambufs is
public.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, that is the wording I meant. The intent is to
ensure the implementation does *not* have to put forth
such effort. I don't understand where such an
implication is coming from, but that wording has
confused at least three experienced wordsmiths, so I
acknowledge there is an issue, but I don't understand
what it is.<br>
</p>
<p>I think it is important to say something here.
Otherwise, one could claim that the terminal failing
to display
<tt>"μs"</tt> because it is configured for an
incompatible encoding is non-conforming. Well, to the
extent that the standard addresses such devices.<br>
</p>
<p>Tom.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="x_x_x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal">Corentin’s P/R below
seems to not have this concern.</p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal">Billy3</p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;
width:98%">
<div id="x_x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Lib
<a class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib-bounces@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib-bounces@lists.isocpp.org></a> on
behalf of Tom Honermann via Lib <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib@lists.isocpp.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 1:12:48
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Corentin <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:corentin.jabot@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<corentin.jabot@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Tom Honermann <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tom@honermann.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<tom@honermann.net></a>; C++ Library
Evolution Working Group <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org></a>; Library
Working Group <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lib@lists.isocpp.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lib@lists.isocpp.org></a>; <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:unicode@isocpp.open-std.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
unicode@isocpp.open-std.org</a> <a
class="x_x_x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:unicode@open-std.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<unicode@open-std.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [isocpp-lib] [SG16-Unicode]
[isocpp-lib-ext] [time.duration.io] : Is stream
insertion behavior locale dependent when
Period::type is micro?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The intent of the wording is to say
that implementors do *not* need to be aware of
terminals or codecvt facets. Without this, the
wording could be read that implementations must
implement magic to make the character display
correctly.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please read the wording again. Note that it
says that, if those conditions are true, then the
result is unspecified. <br>
<br>
<div id="x_x_x_x_AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr">Tom.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
On Nov 6, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Corentin <<a
href="mailto:corentin.jabot@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">corentin.jabot@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Then I would just say
associated execution encoding with charT
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Extremely uncomfortable with involving
stream, console or anything else not known
at compile time </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_x_x_x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_x_x_x_gmail_attr">On
Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 04:51, Tom Honermann
<<a href="mailto:tom@honermann.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">tom@honermann.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_x_x_x_gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">On 11/6/19 8:30 AM,
Howard Hinnant wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>You can comment the LWG issue (if you want) by emailing said comment to <a href="mailto:lwgchair@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lwgchair@gmail.com</a>, specifying which issue you wish to comment and supplying the comment.
Howard
On Nov 5, 2019, at 10:32 PM, Corentin via Lib-Ext <a href="mailto:lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Not sure how to do that proceduraly but here is some alternative wording.
The "runtime" locale-tied encoding is *assumed to be* a super set of the execution encoding - to the extent the standard doesn't distinguish between the two
If Period::type is micro, but the <ins>abstract</ins> character <ins>µ , which has the universal character name </ins> U+00B5 cannot be represented in the <ins>execution</ins> encoding <del>used for</del><ins> associated with the character type </ins> charT, the unit suffix "us" is used instead of "µs".</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>Howard and I discussed the wording
I proposed today and we're now on the
same page with regard to the intent.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With regard to Corentin's suggested
wording above, "abstract character"
and "execution encoding" are not
current terms in the standard (well,
the former is inherited from our
reference to the Unicode standard but
is otherwise unused at present).
<a
href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwg21.link%2Fp1859r0&data=02%7C01%7Cbion%40microsoft.com%7C371c6ae112934c8e66ca08d7630cd250%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637086779033899949&sdata=oRDqgPM%2BQYpE7tvZ%2FNdfTgdtQfJ4IlCfccsiCFj3aWU%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="http://wg21.link/p1859r0"
shash="E/nTKArAw9NXVuoKaBTELqePmC4Le4cVRP9obysiYCnJ1jtuUeewlVxdPy2TS3W/RnoXUqTD6fZdIF3zaN17po3IaCutRiyBViNJNW1hOl/oE/wPSvbkCNbMc3dWrqsO04UupjqUon9xKmtjYZx2+4wjgM82Sk3LxvwdUuPthsI="
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
P1859R0</a> does intend to
standardize new terminology, but we
don't yet have consensus for what the
new terms should be named. I think we
should avoid using candidate names
until we have such consensus.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tom.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 15:42, Tom Honermann via Lib-Ext <a href="mailto:lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><lib-ext@lists.isocpp.org></a> wrote:
A new LWG issue was filed for this question today:
- <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcplusplus.github.io%2FLWG%2Fissue3314&data=02%7C01%7Cbion%40microsoft.com%7C371c6ae112934c8e66ca08d7630cd250%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637086779033899949&sdata=U5A%2BsZ8XsYQl6KIQpM%2FdifLb70Hs3igIHBHVdsMPFyI%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/issue3314" shash="tRC/LzMNuCDeAfbDQ9tTDl2ZEFEa4QPnutAMOYe6x653kpQn9sj4OLPo3dRfoFW3xwcOe+8ov2H1n+nq4LAiLJpXxAthjyLYN5qoIPzkehbCbwkeHUvrcWHQpRE6CZl71uY+1eLLxCzuDMMiOqjWXOppLqDlLWpP4547sUe9aas=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/issue3314</a>
This issue concerns the ostream inserters added for std::chrono::duration in C++20 and what the intended behavior is for a duration when period::type is micro.
[<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.duration.io&data=02%7C01%7Cbion%40microsoft.com%7C371c6ae112934c8e66ca08d7630cd250%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637086779033909944&sdata=GX4dXIwJ%2FLbhh%2BIOPS8nm0WqPZDRGbW38BEd450UsFw%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://time.duration.io" shash="hvasKRvORmRV3313CPDLFeU53o+HzHMp59sKdTUpA92iIgOfFelK09WujYiiLXFnYiOirk0kXRKQZwTOTIrs/cdGcNkJKT3oHC0rxJzWOGOHtzF/F8gBZYP8I5pyb5YY7DYGyxLHvF8QvdK77RbbPjr13R4Ik62wHZk839nOQuM=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">time.duration.io</a>]p4 states:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>If Period::type is micro, but the character U+00B5 cannot be represented in the encoding used for charT, the unit suffix "us" is used instead of "μs".
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>The question is with regard to which one of the encodings used for charT is referred to here; the compile-time execution character set or the run-time locale dependent native character set?
The proposed resolution specifies that the compile-time execution character set is the intended one. My expectation is that this aligns with existing implementations, but I haven't checked.
Tom.
</pre>
</blockquote>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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