From WINKLER@po3.bb.unisys.com Tue May 7 23:27:03 1996 Received: from bbmail1.unisys.com (192-63-2005.unisys.com [192.63.200.5]) by dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA25690 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 23:26:46 +0200 Received: from x500dir.bb.unisys.com (x500dir.bb.unisys.com [192.63.146.10]) by bbmail1.unisys.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA00310 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 21:26:28 GMT Received: from smtp-msgw.bb.unisys.com by x500dir.bb.unisys.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26569; Tue, 7 May 96 21:25:37 GMT Received: by smtp-msgw.bb.unisys.com with Microsoft Mail id <318FEA01@smtp-msgw.bb.unisys.com>; Tue, 07 May 96 17:25:37 PDT From: "Winkler, Arnold F BB" To: "'keld.'" Subject: The minutes for the WWW Date: Tue, 07 May 96 16:09:00 PDT Message-Id: <318FEA01@smtp-msgw.bb.unisys.com> Encoding: 10 TEXT, 751 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 X-Ms-Attachment: 64N427MI.HTM 25514 05-07-1996 16:00 Status: OR Keld, Here are the minutes in html format with your comments and Sato's stuff corrected. Please consider posting them on the WWW. Regards Arnold [[ 64N427MI.HTM : 4105 in 64N427MI.HTM ]] WG20 N427 Minutes Kyoto

ISO/IEC JTC1 SC22/WG20 N427

DRAFT Meeting Minutes, Meeting #10, KYOTO

ISO/IEC JTC 1 SC22/WG20

Internationalization

May 1, 1996

DATE: April 9 - 12, 1996

TIME: 9:15 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Tuesday thru Thursday

9:15 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. on Friday

LOCATION: Kyoto International Community House

Torii-cho 2-1, Awataguchi

Sakyo-ku,

Kyoto 606, Japan

AGENDA ITEMS:

1. Introduction and announcements by Convenor

435 New SC22 "P" membership for Egypt C22 N2035

2. Introduction of national delegations, liaisons, and cooperation partners

Alain La Bonté (ALB) Canada Government of Québec

Keld Simmonsen (Keld) Denmark consultant

Tatsuhiko Ito (Ito ) Japan Unisys Japan

Akio Kido (Kido) Japan IBM Japan

Takayuki K Sato (TKS) Japan HP Japan

3. Appointment of chairperson, secretary, and drafting committee

3.1 Chair Takayuki K. Sato

3.2 Secretary Takayuki K Sato

3.3 Drafting committee Keld Simonsen, Takayuki K Sato

4. Approval of prior meeting's minutes N417

minutes has been approved without comment

5. Future Meeting Schedule and Plans

5.1 September 9-13 1996, Vienna, Austria

5.2 May 12-16 1997, Québec, Canada

5.3 Fall 1997 TBD @Vienna

(Egypt, USA, UK in priority order)

R9604-01 A9604-01

6. Recognition of new documents and assignment to agenda items

6-1. Up-date available up to today documents

Status of pre-circulated documents are confirmed as:

Up to N431 were in bulk-mailed (except for N426-429

which are Kyoto meeting documents)

After N432 documents are circulated in Kyoto meeting

(except for N433)

N433 is circulated as SC22 N2029

Therefore,it is confirmed that there are no missing

documents between last meeting and this meeting.

(This process is needed, because TK Sato take

a temporary chair position for this meeting)

6-2. Registration of new documents

Nr.

Title

Source

Date

Project

n/a

Early information for the Vienna meeting #11

Winkler/TK Sato

96-04-02

admin

N426

Final Agenda, Kyoto, April 8-12, 1996

Winkler/TK Sato

96-04-09

admin

N428

Resolutions from WG20 meeting #10, Kyoto

Winkler/TK Sato

96-04-11

admin

N429

Participants at the SC22/WG20 Meeting #10, Kyoto-Japan, April 9-12, 1996 (This is mis-numbered as N452 while in the meeting, it is corrected to this number after the meeting)

Winkler/TK Sato

96-04-09

admin

N432

SC22 Program of Work

SC22 N1973

October 1995

admin

N433

ISO/IEC pDTR 10176: Guidelines for preparation of programming language standards

Akio Kido, SC22 N2029

95-11-19

22.13

N434

WG14 concerns about string ordering in WG20

P.J. Plauger

96-01-03

22.30.02.02

N435

New SC22 "P" Membership for Egypt

SC22 N2035

December 95

admin

N436

ISO/IEC WD 14652

Keld

September 95

22.30.02.03

N437

The Normative Referencing of Specifications other

than international Standards in JTC1 International

Standards -Guidelines for JTC1 SCs-

JTC1 N4046

Sidney JTC1

96-03-13

admin

N438

JTC1 ETSI: Agreement on exchange of

information between ISO/IEC JTC1 and ETSI

JTC1 N4049

96-03 (Sidney

JTC1)

admin

N439

JTC1 Policy on Electronic Docment Distribution

JTC1 N4054

(Sidney JTC1 96-03?)

admin

N440

ISO/IEC 14651 - Working Draft #4 - International String Ordering

A. LaBonté

96-03-18

22.30.02.02

N441

Report on the Meeting of Ad Hoc Group A - JTC1 Strategy for Implementing IT

JTC1 N4055

Sidney JTC1 96-03-13

admin

N442

Resolutions of the Meeting of ISO/IEC JTC1, 11-15 March, 1996 Sidney Australia

JTC1 N4058

admin

N443

Recommended Request from JTC1 for Action Plans and Information from Scs and SGFS on Implemantation of JTC1 Policy on Conformity Assesment and JTC1 Policy on Interoperability

SC22 N2039 JTC1 N3826

admin

N445

SC22 Secretary Report for the ISO/IEC JTC1 March 1996 Planary

SC22 N2045

admin

N446

Data specification format for transliteration and transcription

Keld

96-04-08

22.30.02,03

N447

Procedures for European Registration of Cultural Elements

CEN Env 12005

96-04

22.30.02.03

N448

Draft pDAM on Unique identifiers for Characters

SC2WG2 N1289

96-01-04

22.30.02.02

N449

Extract of CEN TC 304 N530

CEN TC 304 N530

22.30

N451

ISO CD 12199 Alphabetical ordering of multilingual terminological and lexicographical data represented in the Lation alphabet

ISO TC 37 SC2, WG3 N65

96-01-18

22.30.02.02

N455

WG20 report to SC22 about cooperation with CEN (Follow up of N415, and N499)

TK Sato

96-04-11

22.30

note-1: This list includes all new documents distributed in the meeting after the agenda item 6

note-2: All standing documents SD1-5 were up-dated in this meeting.

7. Approval of Agenda N424

Final agenda is approved as SC22/WG20 N426

8. Liaison Reports

Additions/deletions/changes to liaisons: SD4 has been up-dated

SC22/WG4, COBOL: n/a 

SC22/WG15, POSIX, Rapporteur Group on Internationalization:  Keld reported that NP "Guideline for national profile" passed.  Project was assigned for SC6 by mistake but it is corrected to SC22.
X/OPEN:	Keld  reported that i18n activity in X/OPEN is along with Annex E of PDTR 10176.
SC22/WG14 - C:	Keld said their response to the report is positive.  WG14 will provide a response to WG20. A9604-03.  N434 from PJ Plauger was mentioned.(discussion to be at agenda item 12)
WG21	Keld is assuming that Michael Kung presented N423 to WG21 in their Tokyo meeting.  Response is not known yet. Keld is expecting positive response to the extended identifier issue. A9604-03

WG5 n/a

GUIDE/SHARE Europe nothing particular 

SC18/WG9	Ballot for the input method closed (SC18/WG9 will have meeting next week)  Keyboard symbols has been accepted by SC2WG2 for inclusion into ISO/IEC 10646.
CEN TC 304/WG2	N447, N449   ENV 12005 has been approved (N447),  and N449 is an extract of minutes from Barcelona meeting (Nov. 1995). Discussion to be agenda item 16-4.  CEN TC 304 is planning to have meeting in Vienna at same week as WG20.  TC37   N451     CD 12199 (another ordering standard) is in ballot (close end of May)

9. Review of prior meetings action items

Up-dated SD5 (All action items from Copenhagen have done !!), and updated SD5 has been approved

10. Framework for Internationalization TR 11017

TKS reported the status. English polish up on N366RR has been done by Miles Ellis. TK Sato is in process of reformatting to final DTR.

11. Revision of TR 10176 N433, N434

Ballot will be closed May 26. Until then, no large discussion to be done. Disposition of ballot comment will be done at Vienna meeting.

E-mail talks about C++ (which were just before the Kyoto meeting) was discussed. 

- C++ is going to refer to TR 10176 which is informative document. (Can not be referenced).  Keld will accommodate the requirements in 14652 such that C++ can refer to 14652 instead of 10176.
- 10176 is referring to selected ISO/IEC 10646 characters which is moving target.  This might be a problem. Keld said that this is not sensitive issue because it is addition, not replacing. Everybody agreed this opinion.

12. International string ordering IS 14651

N434, N440, N448 

ALB explained N440:  Section 7 to be moved to 14652, Uxxxx character ID is different from what SC2/WG2 is going to define (N448) etc.,   As of now, no decision by WG20 for technical  matter needed to proceed the drafting.
As conclusion,  ALB wanted to proceed to the combined CD ballot as soon as possible after reflection of comments in Kyoto meeting.
Keld expressed his concerns about Binding Sample (per JTC1 procedure), missing table and several others.  Kido expressed his concerns such as "how to put ID for out-side 10646 characters" and conformance issue.  N434 (WG14-PJ Plauger) was discussed as a sample of the conformance issue.   ALB wants to say that current C (strcoll, wcscoll) is conforming the 14651.  TKS said that there are two separated scopes (ordering result and engine) of the WD, thus, covering everything with single conformance requirement is making the confusion.

Possibility of multiple conformance (levels and options) to resolve the major issues was discussed and concluded to re-draft the WD with following 5 levels. ( API 1 or 2/3 (or both), + tables + table tailorability, + Pre & post processing of data, +threads, + Precision). This levelling will resolve issue raised from WG14 (N434). Keld will provide positive liaison letter to WG14 (A9604-04).

Uxxxx: ALB wanted one format of ID besides the format issue itself. Decision was to take generic SC2/WG2 ID of xxxx and add U as unique to 14651 indicator.

Title: While discussing Uxxxx and character names form UCS, ALB proposed much accurate project (document) title. The proposal has been accepted (R9604-03)

Language binding sample: Add C-binding sample for all levels. Keld will help ALB for this. Section 7: Move specification methods in section 7 to 14652., but related implementation limit to be specified in 14651

Timing: ALB strongly wanted the combined ballot around June time frame. TKS asked if there is a possibility of separation of CD registration ballot and CD ballot for a just in case the new draft gets delayed (due to the consensus formation). Both ALB and Keld said that separation will cause a delay of the process as a reality. So, combined ballot is the agreement. Keld express his concern on the process of combining ballot (SC22 decision is necessary to proceed to the combining ballot). Conclusion is to send the draft from WG20 to SC22 secretariat with our desire of combining ballot, then it is a matter of SC22 to decide the further process.

Conclusion:

Re-draft text reflecting all discussion in Kyoto. No further technical requirement to be added to the draft. No need to tune "definition" as of now

Target schedule is: 1st May ----> ALB: new draft to FTP

15 May ----> comments due

1st June ---->(If comments are reasonably accommodated and resultant draft is agreed). CD reg and CD ballot request to SC22 (to see what's decision of SC22) R9604-02

13. Cultural convention-specification standard IS 14652

N436, N446

Keld explained current status of the draft:

CD 14652 (N454) =3D N436 + N446 + 14641 section 7 related (from ALB) + 10176 requirements which is the normative-lizer (from Kido).

No specific technical decision needed from WG20 to proceed the draft. Keld wants to proceed to the combining CD ballot along with ALB's new 14651 draft for newly revised WD.(Same schedule)

ALB: want to have commitment to include the equivalent to current section 7 of 14651 in to the new draft. This issue is left for off-line talk between ALB and Keld.

Kido: expressed his comments: There are many unacceptable explanation due to the referencing direction (POSIX should refer this, but this should not). This is because of the fact that the most of part of this draft was made by copying POSIX standards. Also, there are many C smelling terms in the text without explanation (Keld agreed to add explanations). There are some code set dependency (should be independent). (Keld said that it is needed for backward compatibility. Kido disagreed).

Also there are some unnecessary things (per Kido) due to the backward compatibility (per Keld). COPY is not necessary because there are no "data" to be referred. (Keld respond it is better to have it. Conclusion: leave as is for CD. Discuss DIS stage because this discussion depends on the availability of a registry standard(s) or synchronisation issue).

TKS: Also pointed out the referencing direction issue expressed by Kido, TKS extended the concern toward the relation with TR 11017 and 10176. TKS said this should be FDCC or FDCC-set specification method and the POSIX locale might be a POSIX version ofFDCC-set.

Since FDCC and FDCC-set are newly introduced principle, it is better to explain this relation in this TR (Keld agreed). Then, FDCC (or FDCC-set) specification method should include a procedure/guideline to add new cultural convention as FDCC and/or FDCC to FDCC-set. (Format can be similar to POSIX) (Keld agreed)

Agreed referencing direction:

11017 -> (10176) -> 14652 -> API standard -> Language binding

C smell without explanation: addition of explanation was agreed

Backward compatibility/Character set dependency: Kido did not like, but accepted as an exceptional case with condition of "add repertoire map". Keld agreed with some reluctance.

%X : Agreed to add note or something to explain (with condition of "do not to bite it's own tail". Copy: Leave as is with editor's note

Target schedule: Same as 14651 Keld re-drafts reflecting above agreements. R9604-04

14 Decision process by e-mail 

Keld reported that SC22WG22 (PCTE) decided an e-mail base decision making process. He expressed his desire to apply the same process to WG20.   The system is: No response for 1 month is acceptance, and everybody has veto power.  Kido: It is convenor's responsibility to select a suitable process for the group.  TKS: The method should be fair and should not invite needless noise.  Still there are some members who have a difficulty to utilise e-mail facility.
Keld said "we are making a decision in WG meeting without listening to comments from all members (only comments from participants are considered), what's the difference?".  Sato said: "The official call for meetings are circulated in paper form.  Thus not participating is per their own risk.  This is a big difference to cases where people are not reachable on e-mail.  Conclusion : In principle, this might be one of the direction to be considered. But real process should be defined carefully.  Keld will draft proposed process and open an e-mail discussion.  The proposal should cover following current concern: Who has a right/duty to attend the meeting (who are not)?. On what kind of topics?  Who has a voting right?  How to communicate with a persons who do not have e-mail access.   A9604-05

15. Internationalization API standard (NP):

NP ballot has closed, but ballot result is not known yet. (Thus,) no discussion.

As a related subject, Keld reported related European activities.

Information is available at

http://www. dkuug.dk/maits/

.

16. ISO/IEC 10646 Issues N448 

Keld expressed his concern on SC2/WG2 decision about "short identifier" (N448). (see agenda item 12 also), concern is commonly used practice of Uxxxx is not defined there.  The meeting conclusion is not to react any at this time (considering that this is SC22 matter), but Keld may say something through national body to SC2/WG2.

17. Other business

17-1 Env 12005 N447 

Keld proposed to FAST TRACK Env 12005 N447. (Requested WG20 support for the fast track).   TKS said since this is on-going CEN/TC304 project, contact from CEN to JTC1 via Vienna Agreement process. (No need to bring it in from back door, there is well defined process).
Or, if some country adopt it as national standard, then, the national body may request JTC1 fast track.  Discussion closed.   R9604-05

17-2 WWW N439, N441, N442 

Keld requested agreement of WG20 to let convenor tell to SC22 that Keld is web maintainer for SC22/WG20 home page.  Agreed without comment.   R96-04-06
Keld wanted to put selected important WG20 documents on web.  Agreement is it is OK unless it does not create any IPR problems with ISO and IEC.  R9604-08  A9604-10
In addition, Keld is requested to investigate the possibility of posting copy-righted documents is allowed or not. and report to the WG20 for further decision  A9604-06
Keld also proposed to put "summary of important WG20 related documents". In principle, it is accepted.  Concern was review process. decision: approval by convenor is needed for posting. R9604-07

17-3 Convenor's report

Convenor's report plan for next SC22 plenary was discussed

using N347 as a template.

Section 1.1.1: add Egypt, Section 1.2: Replace with new SD4,

Section 1.3: add plan for #13 meeting, Section 2.2.x:

Up-date project status (assuming Vienna meeting results),

add API std status if needed, Remove section 2.3.2, 2.3.3, 2.3.4,

Add new section of 3.1.2 and mention about www WG20 home page,

Section 3.2.1 Request CD etc..., Section 3.2.2 request

new project name for 14651, Remove 3.2.3,

Section 3.2.4 leave as is until we have some input from SC22.

A9604-08 A9604-09

17-4 CEN TC 304 relation N449

Keld showed N449. TKS said WG20 already responded to SC22 as N415, so, unless having further instruction from SC22, WG20 should not take any reaction (or commitment) direct to CEN TC305 (also N499 does not request any to WG20). Without aiming a direct response to CEN TC 304, N499 was reviewed. TKS said that not all projects listed in section 11 are pointing WG20 Following projects are pointing to WG20 in N499:

L/132 (WD 14652) Only thing that WG20 need to do is

"just wait for CEN input"

L/211b (WD 14652) Only thing that WG20 need to do is

"just wait for CEN input"

L212 (L211a) Env 12005 this was discussed as agenda item

6-1. This is also wait for CEN's action.

C/3312 (i18n API std) Ballot result is unknown.

No action can be taken.

C/3311b (DTR 10176) Only thing that WG20 need to do is

"just wait for CEN input"

Therefore, if WG20 even want to take some actions now, it is not possible to do unless having something more from CEN TC 304. Discussion closed. 

At the time of resolution drafting, Keld re-opened this discussion and wanted to bring some information back to up-coming CEN TC 304 meeting.    because of above reason, there are nothing to do direct for CEN TC 304.   It was agreed to write something to SC22, and Keld will bring a copy of it to CEN TC 304 and encourage CEN TC 304 to take further action under process of Vienna Agreement.  For that purpose harmless report of N455 was drafted.  For N455 draft, ALB disagreed because it is not mentioning any on ordering standard. TKS said that ordering is covered by R9604-10. Further more, cooperation with CEN TC 304 for ordering standard (under Vienna Agreement) may mean one of following:
Invite CEN representatives to WG20 meeting for discussion, transfer the project to CEN by terminating existing project, do parallel voting at DIS stage or CEN adapt the resultant JTC1 standard as CEN standard.    Therefore, what we can do now is wait for CEN representative or the transfer of the project (other methods means no change).   ALB did not like to take one of possible ways.  Finally ALB agreed with N455 because it has no real meaning.  R9604-09   A9604-11

Note for better understanding of reader: (added by TKS)

The Vienna Agreement defines the following processes to proceed the cooperation project.

- Cooperation by correspondence (clause 2 and sub clause 3.1)

- Cooperation through mutual representation at meetings (subclause 3.2) and

joint coordination meetings (subclause 6.1) (to resolve comments received

for parallel voting on IS and preEN)

- Transfer of work from CEN approved project to JTC1 (for NP ballot)

(subclause 3.3)

- Adoption of existing IS as European Standards (clause 4)

- Parallel approval of standards in JTC1 and CEN (clause 5) 

All plan should run under one of above, therefore, planning should be reviewed from the applicability of one of above, project should be planed per one of above processes and managed per one of above processes.

17-5 TC 37 sorting N451

Keld reported that, at TC 37,there is CD ballot going on for another ordering standard. General sentiment of discussion was "want to co-work through liaison for maximum harmonization". Keld will write liaison statement with help of ALB. (May 1 due date for ALB's input to Keld) R9604-10, A9604-07

17-6 Others (including other JTC1 and SC22 documents)

N432, N435, N437, N438, N442, N445,

Other documents distributed in this meeting were scanned. No documents needs the discussion at this meeting, all are just for information.

18. Review of Priorities and Target Dates

No discussion on this topics: Target dates for critical projects (14651, 14652) are already defined at other agenda items.

19. Review of Actions Items from this meeting

Revised SD-5 is approved.

20. Approval of Resolutions

All resolutions in "N428 Resolution from WG20 #10, Kyoto meeting" were approved unanymously

21. Adjournment

Meeting adjourned at 12:45, April 12, 1996.

-------end of minutes------