From psmith@mozart.convex.com Wed Mar 18 16:43:37 1992
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 92 09:43:05 -0600
From: psmith@mozart.convex.com (Presley Smith)
Message-Id: <9203181543.AA27977@mozart.convex.com>
To: SC22WG5@dkuug.dk, walt@netcom.com
Subject: Re:  (SC22WG5.64) Procedures
Cc: psmith@mozart.convex.com
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| I stand on each of them.  You many not like it, but I have my right to
| have my positions and also the right not to be jabbed for those positions
| by cynical remarks. 
| 
| FYI.  Presley

>You score 50% on the above.  Nobody has questioned your right to express
>your opinion, but you certainly can expect to get pummeled by those who
>disagree.  How do you conclude that a statement that disagrees with
>your position is an attempt to claim you have no right to make it?
>You say my position and Loren's represent "BS"; is this not jabbing
>with cynical remarks?

You miss the point.  The BS is the whinning and the blaming the process
or the political side or the whatever.  

  1. The process is the same as it was for FORTRAN 77.  It's not 
     perfect, but it's been working for years and has produced lots
     of standards...

  2. The is a political side of all committees in all different standards
     groups... that's part of it.  

  3. There's a business agenda in all committees and standards groups.
     Fortran exists because there is a business need for it.  If it was
     was a hobby or strictly an academic thing, then the businesses would
     not pay to send people to the meetings...  Fortran is big business.

I am tired of hearing about one side or the other side being wrong, stupid,
not being committed to doing the right thing, etc.   Committee work is
supposed to be consenses building!  Not shooting at each other.  

We should all be big enough to debate the issues without attacking the 
people and ideas that we don't agree with.   If you are for something
and I'm against something, then we should each be able to make our 
arguments as to why we are right and sign up people to support or 
not support our position.  And when the vote comes, if we loose, then
thats the way the process is supposed to work.  

That's what should happen in the committee and the committee's above X3J3.  
That's what should happen in the public review and in the press.  Etc.

The X3J3 committee has gotten a bad reputation due to some of the members
and the way they behaved.   I can relate my personal experience of one
of our company's sales people calling me and saying that a member of 
X3J3 had attacked him on a sales call because I didn't know what I
was talking about and was un-professional (the words were stronger
than that...),etc.  Why would anyone jump a salesperson about a technical
committee issue or member?   That's like me jumping the Sun repairman
because I don't like what Sun representive said on the committee.   Dumb.  
But it happened.  In fact, on two different occasions that I know about.

If this committee wants credibility and respect, then each member must
earn that creditibily and respect.  One reason there's problems with
X3 is that members of X3J3 tell their X3 representatives what has 
happened and shows them e-mail (like Lorens) and the X3 guys are shocked
and amazed.  After the incident I detailed above, I called the head of X3.  
And he was shocked and angry.

The leadership of X3J3 has changed.  The attitude of the members of 
X3J3 must also change.   And then maybe we can get out of this debate
and on to the real work.

When the BS of
  - "the process" got us
  - "the political" got us,
  - "business" got us
  - "those that don't understand" got us
goes AWAY and we all grow up, then I'll quit reminding us that we have
got to grow up.  

It's time consensus building, creating each other with respect, 
debating the real issues, trying to understand what the other person
is saying... and stopping messages like the one Loren put out.  

We've got some work to do at the X3 level on credibility and then
this "better" relationship that has been discussed will return.
And you'll be amazed at how much better the committee will work!!

FYI.  Presley