From owner-sc22wg5@dkuug.dk Fri Sep 5 20:43:56 2003 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dkuug.dk (8.12.8p1/8.9.2) id h85IhudE032761 for sc22wg5-domo; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:43:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from owner-sc22wg5@dkuug.dk) X-Authentication-Warning: ptah.dkuug.dk: majordom set sender to owner-sc22wg5@dkuug.dk using -f Received: from math.jpl.nasa.gov (math.jpl.nasa.gov [137.79.7.57]) by dkuug.dk (8.12.8p1/8.9.2) with ESMTP id h85IhbCp032754 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:43:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from vsnyder@math.jpl.nasa.gov) Received: from math.jpl.nasa.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by math.jpl.nasa.gov (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h85IhcnT029121 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:43:38 -0700 Received: from math.jpl.nasa.gov (vsnyder@localhost) by math.jpl.nasa.gov (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h85Ihc6t029117 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:43:38 -0700 Message-Id: <200309051843.h85Ihc6t029117@math.jpl.nasa.gov> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-to: Van.Snyder@jpl.nasa.gov From: Van.Snyder@jpl.nasa.gov To: sc22wg5@dkuug.dk Subject: Paragraph numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:43:38 -0700 Sender: owner-sc22wg5@dkuug.dk Precedence: bulk In the little paper I sent around that displays options for paragraph numbers, I showed both page and line numbers for two reasons. First, to demonstrate that it can be done. Second, to show what it would look like. I showed several styles of paragraph numbers to illustrate the possibility that having different styles could perhaps reduce the confusion of what is a line number and what is a paragraph number. One possibility I didn't show was to put the paragraph number in the right margin instead of the left margin. I agree that line numbers are a much more precise way of locating text in a stable document. I keep 97-007r2 for exactly that reason. On the other hand, I agree with John that it would be nice to have something stable between a first-edition standard and a later one with corrigenda incorporated. I agree with Richard that determining what to count isn't as easy as the counting itself. It was for all these reasons that I proposed that it would be possible to have both paragraph and line numbers. Is anybody interested to explore ways to reduce the confusion of having both of them? Is a different type face good enough? How about line numbers on the left and paragraph numbers on the right? How about Roman paragraph numbers, which I proposed only half tongue-in-cheek? How about paragraph letters? For the rare subclauses with more than 26 paragraphs, we could start over with aa, bb, ..., aaa, bbb, ccc. The advantage of Roman or alphabetic paragraph identifiers is that it's clear what part of a reference is a subclause number and what part is a paragraph identifier, even if we use a point to separate subclause number from paragraph identifier. We could use a different character for the separator. Malcolm didn't like the paragraph symbol I used in the little paper; I used it precisely because it's NOT an ASCII character, so as not to bias the discussion of what to use in plain-text commentary on the standard. I like Malcolm's idea that explicitly specified paragraph identifiers ought to have the previous paragraph's identifier as a prefix. John's observation that finding a citation given a subclause and paragraph number is more difficult than finding one given a page and line number. It could be made less difficult if we put the (first or last) subclause number on a page into the footer. I suggest we put *the* subclause number in the footer, and let LaTeX decide what *the* means. I find this attractive no matter whether we put in paragraph numbers or not. I've noticed that from revision to revision, even if the page numbers change dramatically, the line numbers in the early parts of a Section sometimes don't change. Unfortunately, once they change, they're unlikely to get back into sync until the next Section. Paragraph numbers would get back into sync at the next subclause. There is a remote chance we could have line numbers that start over at each paragraph. Does that interest anybody? Sure, line numbers would change when the document is translated. I don't see a problem with that. It's kind of silly for ISO to insist that we have to use subclause numbers instead of page and line numbers, because it would make absolutely no sense to quote a subclause number in the Japanese edition (which would be the same as in the English edition), and then propose a Japanese edit to the English edition. That is, you always need to know what edition you're editing anyway. Even though the text at page 33 line 9 of the English edition when translated might end up at page 34 line 26 in the Japanese edition, it's still at page 33 line 9 in the English edition: Translating the document into Japanese doesn't affect the line numbers in the English edition. I assume that translators of the standard also eventually get around to translating the corrigenda. When they do, they could also revise the page and line numbers to refer to their edition. So, what's the _real_ problem with line numbers? Did the prohibition against line numbers arise in the age when ISO re-set standards by hand, and ended up with entirely different layout from the committee's final draft? If so, it's a bureaucratic anachronism that ought to abandoned in the age of camera- ready copy. -- Van Snyder | What fraction of Americans believe Van.Snyder@jpl.nasa.gov | Wrestling is real and NASA is fake? Any alleged opinions are my own and have not been approved or disapproved by JPL, CalTech, NASA, Sean O'Keefe, George Bush, the Pope, or anybody else.