From Craig.Dedo@mixcom.com Mon Jun 9 08:08:08 1997 Received: from ratatosk.DK.net (root@ratatosk.DK.net [193.88.44.22]) by dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00722 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:08:06 +0200 Received: from mixcom.mixcom.com (mixcom.mixcom.com [198.137.186.100]) by ratatosk.DK.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA01194 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:19:26 +0200 Received: by mixcom.mixcom.com (8.6.12/2.2) id IAA19423; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:18:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199706071318.IAA19423@mixcom.mixcom.com> Received: from dial192-20.mixcom.com(205.254.192.20) by mixcom.mixcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma019416; Sat Jun 7 08:18:44 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 08:19:27 -0600 From: Craig Dedo Subject: Re: (x3j3.1997-167) FW: Intrinsics in Initialization Expressions To: "Loren Meissner" Cc: WG5 Mailing List In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Dear Members of J3 and WG5: Thanks, Loren, for forwarding to us this critique from Lawrie. I believe that it makes a whole lot of sense. I just hope that the members of J3 and WG5 will listen and do the right thing. Lawrie explains in clear, unambiguous, and straightforward language just why we should accept all of the math library into initialization expressions. Please remember, we are designing for the year 2000 and beyond, not the 1960s. By the time that Fortran 2000 hits the streets, the 100 MHz Pentium that Lawrie is buying by the 100s will already be a museum piece. At the next J3 meeting, I would like to have another straw vote on whether we should lift the restrictions on floating point functions. Perhaps we ought to do this at the WG5 meeting in Vienna as well. On Fri, 6 Jun 97, "Loren Meissner" wrote: >This is Lawrie's response to a note I sent him, clarifing the current status >of MTE #6 (Intrinsics in Initialization Expressions). >= >Loren P. Meissner > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lawrie Schonfelder >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 12:21 PM >To: Loren Meissner >Subject: RE: Intrinsics in Initialization Expressions > >I am afraid I think this is still silly. It complicates the language, makes it >more difficult to remember what is and is not allowed and teaching it is >aweful; how do you justify the unjustifiable. >I can write >Real:: e=1.0 +1.0/1.0 + 1.0/(1.0*2.0) + 1.0/(1.0*2.0*3.0) + & > 1.0/(1.0*2.0*3.0*4.) >(I would not of course) >but not >Real :: e=EXP(1.0) >This is perverse. It is a symptom of the petty restrictive inconsitency that >still detracts from Fortran and makes my CS colleagues refuse to contemplate >teaching it. >Comments about small machines are now meaningless. The entry level machine I >am now buying by the 100 for general undergraduate use have 100Mhz pentiums, >16Mb memory and over a Gigabyte of disc. The Fortran compiler on such a system >is a tiny little program. I can load the whole think into RAM disc if I want >along with the full runtime library and still have enough usable RAM to run it >without paging. We are not mucking about in the 1970s anymore. >I dont think issues like this are trivial. They are an indication of too >backward looking restrictive a view of language development. If Fortran is to >survive (and I think it has only a slim chance now) it has got to sweep itself >clean of as many of its past restrictions and irregularities and become easy >to learn and use. As well as being powerful and extensible. Once you have >learnt the basic syntactic flavour of the language the motto must be "if it >looks right and makes sense to the user it should be legal and run doing the >obvious thing". Without this Fortran will not even survive in its current >limited niche market of HPC in engineering and science. >Sorry to be so peavish but it depresses me to see the same old process >continuing. > >-- >Dr.J.L.Schonfelder >Director, Computing Services Department >The University of Liverpool >Liverpool, UK, L69 7ZF >Phone: 44(151)794 3716 Fax: 44(151)794 3759 ---------- Sincerely, Craig T. Dedo Internet: Craig.Dedo@mixcom.com Elmbrook Computer Services Voice Phone: (414) 783-5869 17130 W. Burleigh Place Brookfield, WI 53005 Disclaimer: These opinions are mine alone. USA They do NOT represent any organization. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1759)