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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID dcfd2dc8819d3ec7fdfd865f21ea63e2; Tue, 05 Jul 2022 18:36:13 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] [SC22WG5.6371] Kickstarting proposals for F202Y features From: Van Snyder To: sc22wg5 Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2022 11:36:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <01BD3000-D313-4772-9F17-B88EBFCE7AD1@nvidia.com> References: <20220423202701.79FA3358A51@www.open-std.org> <6aa3bd7708c066979886c72ff1b80a9b3147abd4.camel@sbcglobal.net> <01BD3000-D313-4772-9F17-B88EBFCE7AD1@nvidia.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-sXuS4JrORdlSJhrUKZjc" User-Agent: Evolution 3.38.3-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20381 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --=-sXuS4JrORdlSJhrUKZjc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 2022-07-05 at 14:00 +0000, Jeff Hammond wrote: > If you think we should limit Fortran 2026 to what Ada was willing to > do in 1983, I don’t know what to tell you.  Fortran isn’t Ada and it > has been almost 40 years since that decision.  Many aspects of > computing have changed and we do things today that were almost > unimaginable in 1983. Like Fortran, Ada is continuously under development. The 1983 Ada standard has been revised many times. The most recently published revision was in 2012, when full support for "programming by contract" and "protected variables" (aka coroutines with synchronization) were provided. Another revision is nearing publication. A draft of the 202x standard is available at http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/ada2x.html. Ada wasn't designed for linear algebra. It was designed for embedded real-time applications. So their original approach was for unstructured parallelism, not coarrays. Now that Fortran is also finally thinking about less structured parallelism, not just linear algebra and PDEs, it would be useful to learn from the Ada community's very long experience. Read "Concurrent and Real-Time programming in Ada" instead of guessing that all that's there was what was provided forty years ago. They have actually learned something about what we in Fortran are only now starting to imagine. If anybody is interested in details about why async blocks were rejected by the Ada community, in favor or protected variables (aka coroutines with synchronization), I can put you into contact with members of WG9. --=-sXuS4JrORdlSJhrUKZjc Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, 2022-07-05 at 14:00 +0000, Jeff Hammo= nd wrote:
If you think we should limit= Fortran 2026 to what Ada was willing to do in 1983, I don=E2=80=99t know w= hat to tell you.  Fortran isn=E2=80=99t Ada and it has been almost 40 = years since that decision.  Many aspects of computing have changed and= we do things today that were almost unimaginable in 1983.

Like Fortran, Ada is continuously under development. = The 1983 Ada standard has been revised many times. The most recently publis= hed revision was in 2012, when full support for "programming by contract" a= nd "protected variables" (aka coroutines with synchronization) were provide= d. Another revision is nearing publication. A draft of the 202x standard is= available at http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/ada2x.html.

Ada wasn't designed for linear algebra. It was designed for embedded real-= time applications. So their original approach was for unstructured parallel= ism, not coarrays. Now that Fortran is also finally thinking about less str= uctured parallelism, not just linear algebra and PDEs, it would be useful t= o learn from the Ada community's very long experience. Read "Concurrent and= Real-Time programming in Ada" instead of guessing that all that's there wa= s what was provided forty years ago. They have actually learned something a= bout what we in Fortran are only now starting to imagine.

If anybody is interested in details about why async blocks were rej= ected by the Ada community, in favor or protected variables (aka coroutines= with synchronization), I can put you into contact with members of WG9.

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