From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Tue Jun 23 09:41:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id D0035358C15; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 09:41:48 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-qk1-f169.google.com (mail-qk1-f169.google.com [209.85.222.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F678358B1D for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 09:41:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f169.google.com with SMTP id l6so14326388qkc.6 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 00:41:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sourceryinstitute.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W8YkS07mC56P8VKX+DVL7UdfduLAbrx/5mkT+7E8eIc=; b=BWWn0f18OS6pvcB4KOHrCKNaXoSdXaUxuz/6TNV1cYP4zKxg8NOlSZdbkbnVqaibK5 jX68Ba3DYn50M7vzsFSxWJGOaLloMbD818c+e2fp6xqnbiCI11umwEBgey8CBOlPtMjy 9tKemQqiwA68yvIR75+GB9DMAyvSlyybnA7fKsdCSARDGBax09w5u1C/dg09DRfucZXR P7Jh0/nXrL+s4eYiOlXclG18tmsgIxG7eOGJt3LFw0yAjDHyCs0IHERvaXmFrNO77HCp bNYOEOJEQe7nFw9MDrpDGOyisdV7EkUrmEXXawqrYlidyDFiozfiepxQL8ZiOEYkgjXD oZ5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W8YkS07mC56P8VKX+DVL7UdfduLAbrx/5mkT+7E8eIc=; b=Wsh6+WHUecELNZeKvX5FC0HeKoC/9+e4WPzm6x7j6ehgm7o4OmgDYsT1lpUVV7i7xZ zltZsJ0RqTJ1ZArtqaG1InVWuQ0W/JRAtjA9aRRtw/PtH5438JtMNI/qO6MEyvkIi8tu p7POyQPzv3CzTsjg/z1AqUzUXSL1fy/N6Kgd3Xye6s5kq63NQQbgElf6bhDeUQqeZxI8 3CTu0l+Fnd6TbpOeb8wPvfhUD0RKg00rolCNPgtsl1pJVZduV5GtQ9bh2ytssLmnwMtW cVwwwSJ4yohJdCLlkVfO5UtF2VDMTGJW8AikoFdnHFePccbTmY5G1VnQpoWAjhRlPxOE 2IQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RJ7jTXjzUfoTLlSiql/4TbTJiXBB6xhqfxTN+SiAdqRUfm52b k7FaeFcHYY+35hjmjLK103hTNYzeFfCAVNe68cGr8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDBqU5QD5MjRYHUV3G49OyNOMQYDLzjtS0gyQgazY2lVpgSHMx54Kc7rmpc7u1qaXTE714t6KPZeU8iccqlAI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:250:: with SMTP id q16mr290153qkn.371.1592898106754; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 00:41:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200619235913.262F1358B1A@www.open-std.org> <67861af9-2206-4559-8964-dd29728263f9@www.fastmail.com> <20200623001049.666E5357140@www.open-std.org> <20200623051010.6AE5A3587B8@www.open-std.org> In-Reply-To: <20200623051010.6AE5A3587B8@www.open-std.org> From: Damian Rouson Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 00:41:35 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6258) 2022 WG5 meeting To: General J3 interest list Cc: Bill Long , WG5 List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1223c05a8bb7d28" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --000000000000d1223c05a8bb7d28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I appreciate Vipul's explanation of several issues related to Las Vegas, and I very much appreciate Bill's thoughtful and informative response. I share the concerns that Vipul expressed. Even though they are less of a problem for me now, I'm sensitive to the fact that these issues could be impediments to other people participating so I'm glad the problems were at least presented whether we continue meeting in Las Vegas or not. The only remaining issue I've had with the Vegas meetings seems to have been solved by the HPC subgroup having changed venues in recent meetings. In general, however, I suggest we find a way to accommodate subgroups without having to meet in individual attendee's rooms. While my issue with HPC's prior meeting location related to race, multiple people I've consulted beyond WG5/J3 saw serious potential gender equity problems with the practice of meeting in an attendee's room. Damian On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Long via J3 wrote: > I can certainly imagine that some women would be put off by the almost > naked women impersonating fan dancers on the sidewalks of the strip. But > that=E2=80=99s just speculation on my part. It would be more relevant t= o hear Las > Vegas impressions/stories from Lorri or Jeanne, actual women who have > attended many Las Vegas meetings. (And, of course, you don=E2=80=99t HAV= E to go to > the strip.) > > In terms of being a parent, sure Las Vegas is not focused on children=E2= =80=99s > entertainment. But someone bringing children to a J3 meeting probably > seriously misunderstands the amount of work involved and how little spare > time there is (assuming you are actually doing the work of the meeting). > That=E2=80=99s going to be true whether the meeting is in Las Vegas or De= s Moines. > These meetings are not family vacations. > > If there are potential contributors who, for whatever reason, cannot leav= e > family members, or even a beloved pet, for a week, then we have a good us= e > case for accommodating remote participation. For remote participants, > the only real consideration is time zone, and not the city where the > face-to-face meeting is being held. Something to ponder as we consider > options. > > The family vacation bit is something we need to guard against. Many > academic conferences are intentionally scheduled where the organizers wou= ld > like to vacation on their grant money and bring the family along. The > C/C++ committees have been guilty of the exotic location syndrome in the > past. When our corporate bean counters looked at the low-cost meetings = in > Las Vegas for Fortran, all was OK. When they looked at pacific islands o= r > Scandinavia for C/C++, the reps were told to not attend and we dropped of= f > those committees exclusively because of travel abuse. J3/PL22.3 needs to > be sensitive to this issue when considering locations. > > Cheers, > Bill > > > > > On Jun 22, 2020, at 10:45 PM, Vipul Parekh via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 8:10 PM Steve Lionel via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > .. Some have expressed antipathy to Las Vegas for > > these, though I haven't spotted specific objections. .. > > > > It's entirely from the D&I perspective of current and *future* attendee= s > that I mentioned the concern with a repeat Las Vegas location. > > > > As I mentioned earlier, as-is "there is considerable evidence involving > *gender* and *parenthood* and diminished in-person conference/meeting > attendance." > > > > Without getting into details and not wanting to, I'll attest from my > personal experience the Las Vegas location discourages attendance for > certain folks on the diversity spectrum. This is true for myself as a > parent but more importantly for the other gender in my family (many of wh= om > have a strong STEM background or interest) should they ever get into > numerical computing and programming and have to *travel by themselves* to= a > destination to work on Fortran standard development. > > > > The heightened situational awareness they bring any time they are on > their own, particularly as nearly half have or can experience harassment > **, can be compounded by greatly increased tension when the destination i= s > Vegas. Something as simple as a seat assignment on a plane to and from > Vegas or catching a taxi/uber in the city or needing to walk to a pharmac= y > can all be tremendous stressors in this situation. > > > > If one has empathy, one gets this instantly but no amount of explanatio= n > will be sufficient otherwise. > > > > So I'm not going to elaborate further. > > > > Vipul Parekh > > > > ** THE WOMEN=E2=80=99S PROFESSIONAL CONFERENCE EXPERIENCE & IMPACT STU= DY, > > > https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d8a838628b7472b2aa38999/t/5d960aa= ef1b8cc4d58f44473/1570114225760/%23TheConferenceStudy+Summary+9.30.pdf > > > > > > > > > > Bill Long > longb@cray.com > Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support & voice: 651-605-9024 > Bioinformatics Software Development fax: 651-605-91= 43 > Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/ Suite > 1000/ Bloomington, MN 55425 > > > > --000000000000d1223c05a8bb7d28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I appreciate Vipul's explanation of several issues rel= ated to Las Vegas, and I very much appreciate Bill's thoughtful and inf= ormative response.=C2=A0 I share the concerns that Vipul expressed.=C2=A0 E= ven though they are less of a problem for me now, I'm sensitive to the = fact that these issues could be impediments to other people participating s= o I'm glad the problems were at least presented whether we=C2=A0continu= e meeting in Las Vegas or not.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The only= remaining issue I've had with the Vegas=C2=A0meetings seems to have be= en solved by the HPC subgroup having changed venues in recent meetings.=C2= =A0 In general, however, I suggest we find a way to accommodate=C2=A0subgro= ups without having to meet in individual attendee's rooms.=C2=A0 While = my issue with HPC's prior meeting location related to race, multiple pe= ople I've consulted beyond WG5/J3 saw serious potential gender equity p= roblems with the practice of meeting in an attendee's room.
<= div>
Damian=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 10= :10 PM Bill Long via J3 <j3= @mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
I can certainly imagine that some women would be put= off by the almost naked women impersonating fan dancers on the sidewalks o= f the strip. But that=E2=80=99s just speculation on=C2=A0 my part.=C2=A0 It= would be more relevant to hear Las Vegas impressions/stories from Lorri or= Jeanne, actual women who have attended many Las Vegas meetings.=C2=A0 (And= , of course, you don=E2=80=99t HAVE to go to the strip.)

In terms of being a parent, sure Las Vegas is not focused on children=E2=80= =99s entertainment.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But someone bringing=C2=A0 children to a J3= meeting probably seriously misunderstands the amount of work involved and = how little spare time there is (assuming you are actually doing the work of= the meeting).=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s going to be true whether the meeting is= in Las Vegas or Des Moines.=C2=A0 These meetings are not family vacations.=

If there are potential contributors who, for whatever reason, cannot leave = family members, or even a beloved pet, for a week, then we have a good use = case for accommodating=C2=A0 remote participation.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For remote p= articipants, the only real consideration is time zone, and not the city whe= re the face-to-face meeting is being held.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Something to ponder = as we consider options.

The family vacation bit is something we need to guard against.=C2=A0 Many a= cademic conferences are intentionally scheduled where the organizers would = like to vacation on their grant money and bring the family along.=C2=A0 The= C/C++ committees have been guilty of the exotic location syndrome in the p= ast.=C2=A0 =C2=A0When our corporate bean counters looked at the low-cost me= etings in Las Vegas for Fortran, all was OK.=C2=A0 When they looked at paci= fic islands or Scandinavia for C/C++, the reps were told to not attend and = we dropped off those committees exclusively because of travel abuse.=C2=A0 = J3/PL22.3 needs to be sensitive to this issue when considering locations. <= br>
Cheers,
Bill



> On Jun 22, 2020, at 10:45 PM, Vipul Parekh via J3 <j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 8:10 PM Steve Lionel via J3 <j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org<= /a>> wrote:
> .. Some have expressed antipathy to Las Vegas for
> these, though I haven't spotted specific objections. ..
>
> It's entirely from the D&I perspective of current and *future*= attendees that I mentioned the concern with a repeat Las Vegas location. >
> As I mentioned earlier, as-is "there is considerable evidence inv= olving *gender* and *parenthood* and diminished in-person conference/meetin= g attendance."
>
> Without getting into details and not wanting to, I'll attest from = my personal experience the Las Vegas location discourages attendance for ce= rtain folks on the diversity spectrum.=C2=A0 This is true for myself as a p= arent but more importantly for the other gender in my family (many of whom = have a strong STEM background or interest) should they ever get into numeri= cal computing and programming and have to *travel by themselves* to a desti= nation to work on Fortran standard development.
>
> The heightened situational awareness they bring any time they are on t= heir own, particularly as nearly half have or can experience harassment **,= can be compounded by greatly increased tension when the destination is Veg= as.=C2=A0 Something as simple as a seat assignment on a plane to and from V= egas or catching a taxi/uber in the city or needing to walk to a pharmacy c= an all be tremendous stressors in this situation.
>
> If one has empathy, one gets this instantly but no amount of explanati= on will be sufficient otherwise.
>
> So I'm not going to elaborate further.
>
> Vipul Parekh
>
> **=C2=A0 THE WOMEN=E2=80=99S PROFESSIONAL CONFERENCE EXPERIENCE & = IMPACT STUDY,
>=C2=A0 https://static1.squar= espace.com/static/5d8a838628b7472b2aa38999/t/5d960aaef1b8cc4d58f44473/15701= 14225760/%23TheConferenceStudy+Summary+9.30.pdf
>
>
>
>

Bill Long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longb@cray.com
Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support &=C2=A0 =C2=A0voice:=C2= =A0 651-605-9024
Bioinformatics Software Development=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fax:=C2=A0 651-605-9143
Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/=C2=A0 Suite 1= 000/=C2=A0 Bloomington, MN=C2=A0 55425



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