From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Sun Jun 21 09:06:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id DC208358BE2; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 09:06:42 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-oo1-f44.google.com (mail-oo1-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FF93571B7 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 09:06:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-oo1-f44.google.com with SMTP id i4so2729543ooj.10 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 00:06:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YiRRHotZ/Su6OGxZ/AERpzzEIya/q8n3FNrpG4zLe4s=; b=UOFvP/uyqCNlw4PgbEOKS7iB2M+qFl6gqn5nRgZsg9XBLNkH9hsPyASG4uO5BNs+od mrJ4lnRFnWCfmCOBd/Adr2QRRRGkp4Y+FbCDM61Is/q+EaEf+xCFtuBo559PPzH677bh VIvHB8PZoOEwFbY9KfuL+Z6SXAYJySzZDlT6wikpD/rwzXfpYUpUhdX7u/JjdkH2O1JL Tp7T1hUAbl9aIVdpMZrFCEB0eMy10bViE5Ho+amvlv89UVYxO/ksL47fy04rGh3mznsv yM4VHfq8XtSzBqYGXDcrP0pSDSr2v5zlFG28hqRjjZZf3VUojYV/8rjid5hE7uBsbeIs Lmaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YiRRHotZ/Su6OGxZ/AERpzzEIya/q8n3FNrpG4zLe4s=; b=Vn52mp27ETfRBKDX8nBH7Z2DFqaUfZGhNXTl+gftVRb/RiW7rVuxbci1Yfn/bhacXX ffSqDLGwTzIsj7KLt3jU6ptxiWVCN7lNhwGJDAPOWKN/nZQzy9rP82hIrrCFtTrQoSYJ y0YBtNB+LK2WTrKiIxZRK6ckYfF8gWvPYdznSCOk9zyPhrGXTgz/06ILDQFpK2QEzCeh KGAVpFjqzaRq5FgZrxZwYDNdzejF3tBnVILDN+UxqCeRnwk1HbSuban/kNLBJgbfSWRt czKp10Rwv7CMyYEpRGHSdTRDawROWwLMyOLtGkvwkjAG7QmiEZvEL3qidhP6Uh6gUZW6 rjpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DgrUZ/CRzuJ9TEjSuJzlGc+FlsZgvfEiI8X7zK1XLr4RkNwiv oZEaQ55pIJv77AQ8w2Hwm1yOPX+/izhmVoshqEk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5xfRfl1Lnq/bDCXUlEOrv+qlKelqkXVWWZdmtEqDHww9oEQ0PPYzFp3WS/a45iUIzfWD/ZIrn8r2HGnBPXdo= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:6c7:: with SMTP id 190mr9672853ooj.4.1592723200733; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 00:06:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200619235913.262F1358B1A@www.open-std.org> <20200621030514.22AA63587E0@www.open-std.org> <8267C6CA-DFA7-44C0-B775-233C7E14C5DE@cray.com> In-Reply-To: <8267C6CA-DFA7-44C0-B775-233C7E14C5DE@cray.com> From: Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 00:06:28 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6246) 2022 WG5 meeting To: Bill Long Cc: General J3 interest list , WG5 List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009af72005a892c478" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --0000000000009af72005a892c478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, NVIDIA has a number of offices across the country, from the east coast to the west coast, which would be suitable for hosting. I am not suggesting something that is convenient for my organization or myself. Let me be a bit clearer: we will pay to host meetings at locationz that meet the requirements of WG5 (or PL22.3 for a PL22.3) if the alternative is another meeting in Las Vegas. If the cost of hotels is preventing key participants from attending meetings not held in Las Vegas, let me know and I will explore getting funding for those individuals from my VP. -- Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair CppCon and C++Now Program Chair CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA -- On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 23:34 Bill Long wrote: > > > > On Jun 20, 2020, at 10:04 PM, Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > > > Vipul, > > > > I very much agree that Las Vegas is not a good location. > > I respectfully disagree. For a long list of fact-based reasons, Las Vega= s > is better than most other options. After all, the city is designed > specifically for visitors and meetings/conventions. For those of us who > belong to the Hilton Grand Vacations program, Las Vegas has 5 of the > program=E2=80=99s facilities, and housing costs are essentially zero. > > > > > If WG5 or PL22.3 is ever considering hosting another meeting in Las > Vegas, we would be happy to arrange for that meeting to be hosted either = at > an NVIDIA facility > > People are always willing to propose meetings be held where they > live/work, as the meeting becomes easy and cheap to attend. For everyone > else, a PL22.3 meeting hosted by NVIDIA would end up being more expensive > than Las Vegas, discouraging attendance. I hope that is not a new goal. > (Typically, we look for host support only for the WG5 meetings. For PL22.= 3 > meetings that do not include WG5, we have long-term favorable contracts i= n > Las Vegas, and I would expect to continue with that favorable arrangement= .) > > > > or in DC > > We did have a WG5 meeting in Fairfax (basically DC). It was well > attended, but I did not sense much interest in going back there, and the > members who arranged the meeting are no longer in the area. > > > at no cost to the committee, with as many meeting rooms as needed, A/V > support, catering, comparable hotel room rates, cheap flights, and easy > access. > > > > Pasadena would be a fine location. > > We have debated the Pasadena option several times and every time it was > rejected. Difficulties included poor (or very expensive) transportation > to/from the airport, long distances between the housing and meeting > locations, and the mid-summer weather (though Las Vegas also has this las= t > problem). Personally, I like the Caltech campus. But decisions need to = be > driven by hard facts. > > I understand that Pasadena is convenient for people on the West Coast. Bu= t > Berkeley Lab is even more centrally located and has none of the primary > defects of Pasadena. And for the goal to promote increased diversity, > Berkeley would be a lot more welcoming and appealing than Pasadena. Indee= d, > the last WG5 meeting at Berkeley Lab had the most diverse attendance of a= ll > the meetings I=E2=80=99ve attended. > > Cheers, > Bill > > > > > > No one has been excluded. No one was "cancelled", censured, or punished= . > No punitive actions have been taken. > > > > Most of those involved in the recent discussions chose to participate i= n > a calm, honest, and frank discussion. Some did not. > > > > I hope no one feels the sword of Damocles is hanging over their head. > But I do hope that we all are giving extra thought and care to our conduc= t > and how we express ourselves. > > > > -- > > Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash > > US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair > > ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair > > CppCon and C++Now Program Chair > > CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA > > -- > > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 16:06 Vipul Parekh via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > Under better circumstances, WG5 and J3 would undoubtedly have received > an offer from Van to have Pasadena, CA as the location for the meeting, o= ne > that he had made many, many times previously but which was never accepted= . > I believe it was to his anguish based on what I had discerned even with m= y > limited interactions. > > > > Should ISO and INCITS and by extension, WG5 and J3, really intend to > advance on the diversity and inclusivity (D&I) front generally and > especially on the gender and other minority representation globally, then > it should immediately take note of many, many diverse points: > > > > 1) Honest and frank discussions and an environment that can foster them > is a must, > > > > 2) Las Vegas, given its image and all that it 'sells' as possible, has > considerable disadvantages from a D&I perspective. Arguments in favor of > this location, particularly by those who have an overwhelming amount of > "soft" influence on the functionings of the committee, ostensibly on the > basis of cheap flights, hotels, and easy access, fail to take into accoun= t > the concerns of other potential attendees with differences on the diversi= ty > spectrum have with the LV location, > > > > 3) Pasadena, CA has a considerable number of attractive qualities that > have been overlooked until now, unfortunately. > > > > 4) It is a no-brainer any consideration of true inclusivity begins with > the notion of not being exclusive. And no one sensing or fearing - > consciously or unconsciously - they will be excluded or worse shunned or > abused or otherwise 'canceled' on account of their ancestry or their word= s > directed elsewhere or being insufficiently penitent even when their > *actions* generally and specifically are otherwise conducive to the goals > of D&I. I think what transpired recently with the censure following the > discussions regarding the ISO gender survey has laid a seed of 'cancel > culture' that played into the exclusion. I think this will harm the effo= rt > at improved D&I with WG5 and J3. Following the recent email threads and > what has transpired and given how I perceive and comprehend things that a= re > ever so orthogonal to the developing 'orthodoxy' on so many aspects > currently, I can feel the sword of Damocles hanging over my head too ever > so sharply and the clock ticking toward my own 'cancellation'. I don't > believe true advancement in D&I is possible if matters remain as they are= - > organizations may achieve some numerical/superficial measures, but not re= al > progress. > > > > 5) Both an informal and formal effort to address and overcome the > exclusion (and which strikes directly against any and all D&I initiatives= ) > that has taken place, regardless of whether it was voluntary, will go a > long way toward addressing future issues as well as easing the immediate > concerns of someone like me. I feel a concerted effort to bring Van and > JPL 'back in the fold', one that might begin with a gesture and overture > followed possibly by genuine initiative and acceptance to have Pasadena a= s > the location of the next WG5 meeting will be an act of 'healing' for all > that will go a long way toward fostering D&I. Perhaps this effort is > underway, kudos if it is. > > > > 6) One can credibly argue an organization such as ISO is motivated per > its "environmental, social and governance" ESG charter ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_corporate_governa= nce) > to take various actions such as the one which led to the recent gender > survey. > > * Travel, especially airline travel, retains a heavy environmental > footprint with carbon and pollutants. > > * From a social perspective, recent WG5 and J3 emails themselves > provided an instance of a case of someone of a different gender being > hesitant to travel; there is considerable evidence involving gender and > parenthood and diminished in-person conference/meeting attendance. > > With both environmental and social considerations, I hope all WG5 futur= e > meetings will be dual-mode and they will permit and enable *virtual* and > in-person attendees to participate and contribute equitably. For WG5 and > J3 to make this happen successfully is another challenge it must willingl= y > and immediately accept if they wish to be truly virtuous in their signal = to > improve D&I. > > > > Regards, > > Vipul Parekh > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 8:15 PM Steve Lionel via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > All: > > > > It's time to look for volunteers to host the 2022 WG5 meeting, which is= , > > by our alternation-convention, to be in North America. Dan has offered > > (and received permission) to host us at Mesa Labs in Boulder, Colorado. > > As wonderful as that is, I'd be pleased if someone who hasn't hosted > > recently (or ever) to step up - Dan hosted us in 2016. Don't be shy! > > > > Steve > > > > Bill Long > longb@cray.com > Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support & voice: 651-605-9024 > Bioinformatics Software Development fax: 651-605-91= 43 > Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/ Suite > 1000/ Bloomington, MN 55425 > > > > --0000000000009af72005a892c478 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,

NVIDIA= has a number of offices across the country, from the east coast to the wes= t coast, which would be suitable for hosting. I am not suggesting something= that is convenient for my organization or myself.
<= br>
Let me be a bit clearer: we will pay to host mee= tings at locationz that meet the requirements of WG5 (or PL22.3 for a PL22.= 3) if the alternative is another meeting in Las Vegas.

If the cost of hotels is preventing key part= icipants from attending meetings not held in Las Vegas, let me know and I w= ill explore getting funding for those individuals from my VP.

--
Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka washUS Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair
ISO C++ Library Evolutio= n Chair
CppCon and C++Now Program Chair
CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thru= st, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA
--

On Sat, Jun 2= 0, 2020, 23:34 Bill Long <longb@cray.c= om> wrote:


> On Jun 20, 2020, at 10:04 PM, Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash via J3 = <j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
>
> Vipul,
>
> I very much agree that Las Vegas is not a good location.

I respectfully disagree.=C2=A0 For a long list of fact-based reasons, Las V= egas is better than most other options. After all, the city is designed spe= cifically for visitors and meetings/conventions.=C2=A0 For those of us who = belong to the Hilton Grand Vacations program, Las Vegas has 5 of the progra= m=E2=80=99s facilities, and housing costs are essentially zero.

>
> If WG5 or PL22.3 is ever considering hosting another meeting in Las Ve= gas, we would be happy to arrange for that meeting to be hosted either at a= n NVIDIA facility

People are always willing to propose meetings be held where they live/work,= as the meeting becomes easy and cheap to attend.=C2=A0 For everyone else, = a PL22.3 meeting hosted by NVIDIA would end up being more expensive than La= s Vegas, discouraging attendance.=C2=A0 I hope that is not a new goal.=C2= =A0 (Typically, we look for host support only for the WG5 meetings. For PL2= 2.3 meetings that do not include WG5, we have long-term favorable contracts= in Las Vegas, and I would expect to continue with that favorable arrangeme= nt.)


> or in DC

We did have a WG5 meeting in Fairfax (basically DC).=C2=A0 It was well atte= nded, but I did not sense much interest in going back there, and the member= s who arranged the meeting are no longer in the area.

> at no cost to the committee, with as many meeting rooms as needed, A/V= support, catering, comparable hotel room rates, cheap flights, and easy ac= cess.
>
> Pasadena would be a fine location.

We have debated the Pasadena option several times and every time it was rej= ected.=C2=A0 Difficulties included poor (or very expensive) transportation = to/from the airport, long distances between the housing and meeting locatio= ns, and the mid-summer weather (though Las Vegas also has this last problem= ).=C2=A0 Personally, I like the Caltech campus.=C2=A0 But decisions need to= be driven by hard facts.

I understand that Pasadena is convenient for people on the West Coast. But = Berkeley Lab is even more centrally located and has none of the primary def= ects of Pasadena.=C2=A0 And for the goal to promote increased diversity, Be= rkeley would be a lot more welcoming and appealing than Pasadena. Indeed, t= he last WG5 meeting at Berkeley Lab had the most diverse attendance of all = the meetings I=E2=80=99ve attended.

Cheers,
Bill


>
> No one has been excluded. No one was "cancelled", censured, = or punished. No punitive actions have been taken.
>
> Most of those involved in the recent discussions chose to participate = in a calm, honest, and frank discussion. Some did not.
>
> I hope no one feels the sword of Damocles is hanging over their head. = But I do hope that we all are giving extra thought and care to our conduct = and how we express ourselves.
>
> --
> Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash
> US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair
> ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair
> CppCon and C++Now Program Chair
> CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA
> --
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 16:06 Vipul Parekh via J3 <j3@mailman.= j3-fortran.org> wrote:
> Under better circumstances, WG5 and J3 would undoubtedly have received= an offer from Van to have Pasadena, CA as the location for the meeting, on= e that he had made many, many times previously but which was never accepted= .=C2=A0 I believe it was to his anguish based on what I had discerned even = with my limited interactions.
>
> Should ISO and INCITS and by extension, WG5 and J3, really intend to a= dvance on the diversity and inclusivity (D&I) front generally and espec= ially on the gender and other minority representation globally, then it sho= uld immediately take note of many, many diverse points:
>
> 1) Honest and frank discussions and an environment that can foster the= m is a must,
>
> 2) Las Vegas, given its image and all that it 'sells' as possi= ble, has considerable disadvantages from a D&I perspective.=C2=A0 Argum= ents in favor of this location, particularly by those who have an overwhelm= ing amount of "soft" influence on the functionings of the committ= ee, ostensibly on the basis of cheap flights, hotels, and easy access, fail= to take into account the concerns of other potential attendees with differ= ences on the diversity spectrum have with the LV location,
>
> 3) Pasadena, CA has a considerable number of attractive qualities that= have been overlooked until now, unfortunately.
>
> 4) It is a no-brainer any consideration of true inclusivity begins wit= h the notion of not being exclusive.=C2=A0 And no one sensing or fearing - = consciously or unconsciously - they will be excluded or worse shunned or ab= used or otherwise 'canceled' on account of their ancestry or their = words directed elsewhere or being insufficiently penitent even when their *= actions* generally and specifically are otherwise conducive to the goals of= D&I.=C2=A0 I think what transpired recently with the censure following= the discussions regarding the ISO gender survey has laid a seed of 'ca= ncel culture' that played into the exclusion.=C2=A0 I think this will h= arm the effort at improved D&I with WG5 and J3.=C2=A0 Following the rec= ent email threads and what has transpired and given how I perceive and comp= rehend things that are ever so orthogonal to the developing 'orthodoxy&= #39; on so many aspects currently, I can feel the sword of Damocles hanging= over my head too ever so sharply and the clock ticking toward my own '= cancellation'.=C2=A0 I don't believe true advancement in D&I is= possible if matters remain as they are - organizations may achieve some nu= merical/superficial measures, but not real progress.
>
> 5) Both an informal and formal effort to address and overcome the excl= usion (and which strikes directly against any and all D&I initiatives) = that has taken place, regardless of whether it was voluntary, will go a lon= g way toward addressing future issues as well as easing the immediate conce= rns of someone like me.=C2=A0 I feel a concerted effort to bring Van and JP= L 'back in the fold', one that might begin with a gesture and overt= ure followed possibly by genuine initiative and acceptance to have Pasadena= as the location of the next WG5 meeting will be an act of 'healing'= ; for all that will go a long way toward fostering D&I.=C2=A0 Perhaps t= his effort is underway, kudos if it is.
>
> 6) One can credibly argue an organization such as ISO is motivated per= its "environmental, social and governance" ESG charter (https://en.wikipedia= .org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_corporate_governance) to take vario= us actions such as the one which led to the recent gender survey.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Travel, especially airline travel, retains a heav= y environmental footprint with carbon and pollutants.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * From a social perspective, recent WG5 and J3 ema= ils themselves provided an instance of a case of someone of a different gen= der being hesitant to travel; there is considerable evidence involving gend= er and parenthood and diminished in-person conference/meeting attendance. > With both environmental and social considerations, I hope all WG5 futu= re meetings will be dual-mode and they will permit and enable *virtual* and= in-person attendees to participate and contribute equitably.=C2=A0 For WG5= and J3 to make this happen successfully is another challenge it must willi= ngly and immediately accept if they wish to be truly virtuous in their sign= al to improve D&I.
>
> Regards,
> Vipul Parekh
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 8:15 PM Steve Lionel via J3 <j3@mail= man.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
> All:
>
> It's time to look for volunteers to host the 2022 WG5 meeting, whi= ch is,
> by our alternation-convention, to be in North America. Dan has offered=
> (and received permission) to host us at Mesa Labs in Boulder, Colorado= .=C2=A0
> As wonderful as that is, I'd be pleased if someone who hasn't = hosted
> recently (or ever) to step up - Dan hosted us in 2016. Don't be sh= y!
>
> Steve
>

Bill Long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longb@cray.com
Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support &=C2=A0 =C2=A0voice:=C2= =A0 651-605-9024
Bioinformatics Software Development=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fax:=C2=A0 651-605-9143
Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/=C2=A0 Suite 1= 000/=C2=A0 Bloomington, MN=C2=A0 55425



--0000000000009af72005a892c478--