From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Sun Jun 21 05:05:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id F1F1C35711D; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 05:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com (mail-ot1-f51.google.com [209.85.210.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F53F356ECD for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 05:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 97so10413237otg.3 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 20:05:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0RJe0JKXjyS5Cvi0cqwbh1D/O9UEkP4JQ0ccFvl63Xk=; b=VDWvkbj8Fwl7REG4fef47x4GItG8mkiqeA8GaBozPnHK14bGjq8bF/siz82t3zo73d MB5qs+ZjQXMlTlQocvnrdvhEjMakvaPSu06DHA8q87XKMnUzBtUF4DaiuskAoIJxNpQD pE4FrBDQRxnMj7bcg142/ilDQeCfSMZm6HUU2Zzkq7NxwETN++ciMM61RHu93QrrmKtj AYub0r0psTYNYNhZFHfitMjResxf8/qAg3/FlM6ni+yNvSoNg/XMkhHq99puoXBcLAQw HuUuXdGmeTUAB8nJ+iziYRDKq21U3XzZ4WU9ky0VXag9u/YjDmwy37dhwya4MbT/Snsf Yvlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0RJe0JKXjyS5Cvi0cqwbh1D/O9UEkP4JQ0ccFvl63Xk=; b=O7itSLhPAQ+i/mcnpM2tk07722GaiS7Gfv+wNAFd9FPoRReu6hBfig9Cc50x9uMVGm DBo/V5PSL9vgbWhL1nXdTcU0IeMHxFYcM4KzK+G17B6qHoHEvkEqokuHuDIHh9RT43eK up9GlGBrKZ8KTfr7ekJhOEK9BsJhy3RpJAWFZGABQZk4DUG19NnDEXZJT4evTywCryX5 aMfO+u9zlBYBAQO91ZrW+ORxqA+PaAr/IDj6OX2TK30m1OCnioy+LOGljPdoRnuO8vUH eNEbv/U02G+D2LcMOoxIUeac2lo2yTSDUVjDvRntyNhjO8VZ10nRM91d/IRJNp3d70uk uFeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313gOqc8pMW0GcYrcEfalUcs2YYJTfuvZZISPQFFileCUglWssF cKYCDxBoqPFWMG1JgPa8ADDCowDKEMS3Q6U+SAA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyr4s1aSXUFJfFSttVXnHxF+N9dryeRMUy31XrkacVhavKOBilfuoINGN0Z9iSBCXL17BTnR1IyTuQtVogsEng= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6c03:: with SMTP id f3mr8855047otq.291.1592708711744; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 20:05:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200619235913.262F1358B1A@www.open-std.org> In-Reply-To: From: Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 20:04:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6240) 2022 WG5 meeting To: General J3 interest list Cc: Vipul Parekh , WG5 List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fe879905a88f64d8" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --000000000000fe879905a88f64d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Vipul, I very much agree that Las Vegas is not a good location. If WG5 or PL22.3 is ever considering hosting another meeting in Las Vegas, we would be happy to arrange for that meeting to be hosted either at an NVIDIA facility or in DC at no cost to the committee, with as many meeting rooms as needed, A/V support, catering, comparable hotel room rates, cheap flights, and easy access. Pasadena would be a fine location. No one has been excluded. No one was "cancelled", censured, or punished. No punitive actions have been taken. Most of those involved in the recent discussions chose to participate in a calm, honest, and frank discussion. Some did not. I hope no one feels the sword of Damocles is hanging over their head. But I do hope that we all are giving extra thought and care to our conduct and how we express ourselves. -- Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair CppCon and C++Now Program Chair CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA -- On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 16:06 Vipul Parekh via J3 wrote: > Under better circumstances, WG5 and J3 would undoubtedly have received an > offer from Van to have Pasadena, CA as the location for the meeting, one > that he had made many, many times previously but which was never accepted. > I believe it was to his anguish based on what I had discerned even with my > limited interactions. > > Should ISO and INCITS and by extension, WG5 and J3, really intend to > advance on the diversity and inclusivity (D&I) front generally and > especially on the gender and other minority representation globally, then > it should immediately take note of many, many diverse points: > > 1) Honest and frank discussions and an environment that can foster them is > a must, > > 2) Las Vegas, given its image and all that it 'sells' as possible, has > considerable disadvantages from a D&I perspective. Arguments in favor of > this location, particularly by those who have an overwhelming amount of > "soft" influence on the functionings of the committee, ostensibly on the > basis of cheap flights, hotels, and easy access, fail to take into account > the concerns of other potential attendees with differences on the diversity > spectrum have with the LV location, > > 3) Pasadena, CA has a considerable number of attractive qualities that > have been overlooked until now, unfortunately. > > 4) It is a no-brainer any consideration of true inclusivity begins with > the notion of not being exclusive. And no one sensing or fearing - > consciously or unconsciously - they will be excluded or worse shunned or > abused or otherwise 'canceled' on account of their ancestry or their words > directed elsewhere or being insufficiently penitent even when their > *actions* generally and specifically are otherwise conducive to the goals > of D&I. I think what transpired recently with the censure following the > discussions regarding the ISO gender survey has laid a seed of 'cancel > culture' that played into the exclusion. I think this will harm the effort > at improved D&I with WG5 and J3. Following the recent email threads and > what has transpired and given how I perceive and comprehend things that are > ever so orthogonal to the developing 'orthodoxy' on so many aspects > currently, I can feel the sword of Damocles hanging over my head too ever > so sharply and the clock ticking toward my own 'cancellation'. I don't > believe true advancement in D&I is possible if matters remain as they are - > organizations may achieve some numerical/superficial measures, but not real > progress. > > 5) Both an informal and formal effort to address and overcome the > exclusion (and which strikes directly against any and all D&I initiatives) > that has taken place, regardless of whether it was voluntary, will go a > long way toward addressing future issues as well as easing the immediate > concerns of someone like me. I feel a concerted effort to bring Van and > JPL 'back in the fold', one that might begin with a gesture and overture > followed possibly by genuine initiative and acceptance to have Pasadena as > the location of the next WG5 meeting will be an act of 'healing' for all > that will go a long way toward fostering D&I. Perhaps this effort is > underway, kudos if it is. > > 6) One can credibly argue an organization such as ISO is motivated per its > "environmental, social and governance" ESG charter ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_corporate_governance) > to take various actions such as the one which led to the recent gender > survey. > * Travel, especially airline travel, retains a heavy environmental > footprint with carbon and pollutants. > * From a social perspective, recent WG5 and J3 emails themselves > provided an instance of a case of someone of a different gender being > hesitant to travel; there is considerable evidence involving gender and > parenthood and diminished in-person conference/meeting attendance. > With both environmental and social considerations, I hope all WG5 future > meetings will be dual-mode and they will permit and enable *virtual* and > in-person attendees to participate and contribute equitably. For WG5 and > J3 to make this happen successfully is another challenge it must willingly > and immediately accept if they wish to be truly virtuous in their signal to > improve D&I. > > Regards, > Vipul Parekh > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 8:15 PM Steve Lionel via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > >> All: >> >> It's time to look for volunteers to host the 2022 WG5 meeting, which is, >> by our alternation-convention, to be in North America. Dan has offered >> (and received permission) to host us at Mesa Labs in Boulder, Colorado. >> As wonderful as that is, I'd be pleased if someone who hasn't hosted >> recently (or ever) to step up - Dan hosted us in 2016. Don't be shy! >> >> Steve >> >> --000000000000fe879905a88f64d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vipul,

I ver= y much agree that Las Vegas is not a good location.
=
If WG5 or PL22.3 is ever considering hosting an= other meeting in Las Vegas, we would be happy to arrange for that meeting t= o be hosted either at an NVIDIA facility or in DC at no cost to the committ= ee, with as many meeting rooms as needed, A/V support, catering, comparable= hotel room rates, cheap flights, and easy access.
<= br>
Pasadena would be a fine location.

No one has been excluded. No one was = "cancelled", censured, or punished. No punitive actions have been= taken.

Most of those in= volved in the recent discussions chose to participate in a calm, honest, an= d frank discussion. Some did not.

I hope no one feels the sword of Damocles is hanging over their h= ead. But I do hope that we all are giving extra thought and care to our con= duct and how we express ourselves.

--
Bryce Adels= tein Lelbach aka wash
US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair
= ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair
CppCon and C++Now Program Chair
CUDA = Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA
--

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 16:06 Vipul Parekh via J3 <j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
Under better circum= stances, WG5 and J3 would undoubtedly have received an offer from Van to ha= ve Pasadena, CA as the location for the meeting, one that he had made many,= many times previously but which was never accepted.=C2=A0 I believe it was= to his anguish based on what I had discerned even with my limited interact= ions.

Should ISO and INCITS and by extension, WG5 and J3= , really intend to advance on the diversity and inclusivity (D&I) front= generally and especially on the gender and other minority representation g= lobally, then it should immediately take note of many, many diverse points:=

1) Honest and frank discussions and an environmen= t that can foster them is a must,

2) Las Vegas, gi= ven its image and all that it 'sells' as possible, has considerable= disadvantages from a D&I perspective.=C2=A0 Arguments in favor of this= location, particularly by those who have an overwhelming amount of "s= oft" influence on the functionings of the committee, ostensibly on the= basis of cheap flights, hotels, and easy access, fail to take into account= the concerns of other potential attendees with differences on the diversit= y spectrum have with the LV location,

3) Pasadena,= CA has a considerable number of attractive qualities that have been overlo= oked until now, unfortunately.

4) It is a no-brain= er any consideration of true inclusivity begins with the notion of not bein= g exclusive.=C2=A0 And no one sensing or=C2=A0fearing - consciously or unco= nsciously - they will be excluded or worse shunned or abused or otherwise &= #39;canceled' on account of their ancestry or their words directed else= where or being insufficiently penitent even when their *actions* generally = and specifically are otherwise conducive to the goals of D&I.=C2=A0 I t= hink what transpired recently with the censure following the discussions re= garding the ISO gender survey has laid a seed of 'cancel culture' t= hat played into the exclusion.=C2=A0 I think this will harm the effort at i= mproved D&I with WG5 and J3.=C2=A0 Following the recent email threads a= nd what has transpired and given how I perceive=C2=A0and comprehend things = that are ever so orthogonal to the developing 'orthodoxy' on so man= y aspects currently, I can feel the sword of=C2=A0Damocles hanging over my = head too ever so sharply and the clock ticking toward my own 'cancellat= ion'.=C2=A0 I don't believe true advancement in D&I is possible= if matters remain as they are - organizations may achieve some numerical/s= uperficial measures, but not real progress.

5)= Both an informal and formal effort to address and overcome the exclusion (= and which strikes directly against any and all D&I initiatives) that ha= s taken place, regardless of whether it was voluntary, will go a long way = toward addressing future=C2=A0issues as well as easing the immediate concer= ns of someone like me.=C2=A0 I feel a concerted effort to bring Van and JPL= 'back in the fold', one that might begin with a gesture and overtu= re followed=20 possibly=20 by genuine initiative and acceptance to have Pasadena as the location of th= e next WG5 meeting will be an act=C2=A0of=C2=A0'healing' for all th= at will go a long=C2=A0way toward fostering D&I.=C2=A0 Perhaps this eff= ort is underway, kudos if it is.

6) One can credib= ly argue an organization such as ISO is motivated per its "environment= al, social and governance" ESG charter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_an= d_corporate_governance) to take various actions such as the one which l= ed to the recent gender survey.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Travel, especiall= y airline travel, retains a heavy environmental footprint with carbon and p= ollutants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* From a social perspective, recen= t WG5 and J3 emails themselves provided an instance of a case of someone of= a different gender being hesitant to travel; there is considerable evidenc= e involving gender and parenthood and diminished in-person conference/meeti= ng attendance.
With both environmental and social considerations,= I hope all WG5 future meetings will be dual-mode and they will permit and = enable=C2=A0*virtual* and in-person=20 attendees=20 to participate and contribute equitably.=C2=A0 For WG5 and J3 to make this = happen successfully is another challenge it must willingly and immediately = accept if they wish to be truly=C2=A0virtuous=C2=A0in their signal to impro= ve D&I.

Regards,
Vipul Parekh
<= /div>
O= n Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 8:15 PM Steve Lionel via J3 <j3@mailman.j3= -fortran.org> wrote:
All:

It's time to look for volunteers to host the 2022 WG5 meeting, which is= ,
by our alternation-convention, to be in North America. Dan has offered
(and received permission) to host us at Mesa Labs in Boulder, Colorado.=C2= =A0
As wonderful as that is, I'd be pleased if someone who hasn't hoste= d
recently (or ever) to step up - Dan hosted us in 2016. Don't be shy!
Steve

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