From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Mon Jun 15 22:57:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 8F122358A1A; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:57:40 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-lj1-f171.google.com (mail-lj1-f171.google.com [209.85.208.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392A83571EF for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:57:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f171.google.com with SMTP id a9so20919824ljn.6 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stevelionel.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SgE7egFbqvXTcgnu4Kg0giaGMmf6MnoYlPC+om37ZJY=; b=Qjw1BV4moThWV7FxGWqx8mnMnZHOR8CscVJR1BfruIGh6U63VNjTIEQTU18sTTvmtW IIuZG9CFvfOK2QqYGZR97xXiFMKHmSnAObge8PPsZWHswYuFigPPiGWMtsd9LAenkzHm urjrthMbsdpGDfnqeIlTfUFwC6KD8vgviArfI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=SgE7egFbqvXTcgnu4Kg0giaGMmf6MnoYlPC+om37ZJY=; b=Gjs+MQr4gy9vDQ41XOtLGHyhY5U8ICxwag2GONBcNtDR3YuDVqBStrS97PHz9O+hW/ mzxBxWBo3oOvu/kmI3xpoZ/IhMScTiY28kFBZogTcL/ySs71AWUvI/aajFVpx6ICv8w5 RWnMJi0QAhGVabLEXvH4Pl/6WTzoX+/391HTlzeKLlqChriDde6jTX7KoUga3DlHwsr7 QiobkpiryFrs4L+HF2VDQCqzEQjLtxVQsf1Z2IJ78DVQxOkhpnTWnI66oDXRNBP6sPRt 8GHhlr3JWG9/Y4eBBXsH4KV+6g/CH6NYsHtq4ZbkoSv+8ZCeKg5yOwvjdK4XML5+Ll2+ /lTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GieVAddbCVsK2r3BBVCdxL3KTrk/RXZZ4TUAxZjUNjACnxR3m Px7qNMFBlKfhNIsnp6sfusy46UMNzopIJIKqFvjVNlKw3QE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPWq5YNy4bFffQxxJ5aj1x/RSRW9Zu5rKunVt9mJVhH+YN7Kuk50jgZ1NYBOjXRggfSTTpObpMsKWt8T2sKDE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:870a:: with SMTP id m10mr13007670lji.343.1592254658843; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:57:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <657b7f15-0527-717c-2f46-a8f2cc7d0da2@dmk.com> In-Reply-To: <657b7f15-0527-717c-2f46-a8f2cc7d0da2@dmk.com> From: Steve Lionel Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 16:57:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: Draft Directives To: WG5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000055339405a825adf0" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --00000000000055339405a825adf0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received the following "heads up" from David Keaton, SC22 Chair, about a change in policy for guests invited to WG meetings. I pass it along for information only (I did not include the attachment, but let me know directly if you want to see it.) I did remark to David that joining a WG means joining the National Body (NB - J3 for the US) and there can be a significant expense (as there is in the US.) David, in his reply, agreed and noted that in some countries you have to sign over intellectual property to the NB! Steve ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: David Keaton Date: Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 3:54 PM Subject: Draft Directives Dear SC 22 Convenors, Recently, JTC 1 sent out a draft of the 2020 ISO/IEC Directives with JTC 1 Supplement, Part 1. I've attached a copy. I'd like to draw your attention to subclause 1.12.2 in the description of working groups. There is some history associated with it. Some years ago, there was an incident of bullying in an international standards committee (in a subject area that was not related to SC 22's). Ever since then, national bodies have been worried that the bullying parties would show up at meetings. They began cracking down on which people were allowed to attend WG meetings, making it more and more explicit that only registered members may participate in the process. As part of the crackdown, in 2017, ISO and IEC added a new subclause 1.12.2 that said "Experts not registered to a working group in the ISO [Global Directory] or the IEC [Expert Management System] respectively, shall not participate in its work." It has always been understood that convenors could invite guests to WG meetings, but in the past, that rule was never written down. The 2017 addition appeared to contradict the unwritten rule, which was not intended. Therefore, last year, they added a new sentence to subclause 1.12.2 saying "Convenors may invite a specific guest to participate in a single meeting." Unfortunately, the national bodies were uncomfortable with this being put in writing. A few weeks ago, ISO and IEC extended that sentence to say ". . . and shall notify the guest's National Body of the invitation." The idea behind this is effectively to give veto power to the national bodies. If a convenor exercises the right to invite guests "too often" as interpreted by any particular national body, or if a convenor invites someone a national body doesn't like, the requirement to notify the guest's national body provides a chance to protest the invitation and apply pressure to stop inviting as many people or particular people. Here is the full text of that subclause as it stands today. "1.12.2 The composition of the working group is defined in the ISO Global Directory (GD) or in the IEC Expert Management System (EMS) as appropriate. Experts not registered to a working group in the ISO GD or the IEC EMS respectively, shall not participate in its work. Convenors may invite a specific guest to participate in a single meeting and shall notify the guest=E2=80=99s National Body of the invitation." I am not happy with the increased crackdown. Several SC 22 WGs depend on being able to work with nonmembers. However, the rules will not be loosened, because they were created out of fear generated by a past incident of bullying. The most we can do is be aware of them and do the best we can to get our work done while respecting the directives. Consequently, I would recommend that you continue to invite guests as you have in the past, but now be aware that you will need to notify the guests' national bodies, and those national bodies will be looking over your shoulder. You may wish to reduce the number of invitations of a particular person, or the frequency of invitations overall, to avoid attracting too much attention from national bodies. People can always be encouraged to join the WG formally, so that an invitation will not be required. Sorry for the extra hassle. New rules designed to prevent a single past incident generally have negative consequences. David --00000000000055339405a825adf0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I received the following=C2=A0"heads up" from Da= vid Keaton, SC22 Chair, about a change in policy for guests invited to WG m= eetings. I pass it along=C2=A0for information only (I did not include the a= ttachment, but let me know directly if you want to see it.) I did remark to= David that joining a WG means joining the National Body (NB - J3 for the U= S) and there can be a significant expense (as there is in the US.) David, i= n his reply, agreed and noted that in some countries you have to sign over = intellectual property to the NB!

Steve

---------- Forwarded= message ---------
From: David Keaton <dmk@dmk.com>
Date: Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 3:54 PM
Subje= ct: Draft Directives


Dear SC 22 Convenors,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recently, JTC 1 sent out a draft of the 2020 ISO/IEC D= irectives
with JTC 1 Supplement, Part 1.=C2=A0 I've attached a copy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'd like to draw your attention to subclause 1.12.= 2 in the
description of working groups.=C2=A0 There is some history associated with = it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some years ago, there was an incident of bullying in a= n
international standards committee (in a subject area that was not
related to SC 22's).=C2=A0 Ever since then, national bodies have been w= orried
that the bullying parties would show up at meetings.=C2=A0 They began
cracking down on which people were allowed to attend WG meetings, making it more and more explicit that only registered members may participate
in the process.=C2=A0 As part of the crackdown, in 2017, ISO and IEC added = a
new subclause 1.12.2 that said "Experts not registered to a working group in the ISO [Global Directory] or the IEC [Expert Management
System] respectively, shall not participate in its work."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It has always been understood that convenors could inv= ite guests
to WG meetings, but in the past, that rule was never written down.=C2=A0 Th= e
2017 addition appeared to contradict the unwritten rule, which was not
intended.=C2=A0 Therefore, last year, they added a new sentence to subclaus= e
1.12.2 saying "Convenors may invite a specific guest to participate in= a
single meeting."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unfortunately, the national bodies were uncomfortable = with this
being put in writing.=C2=A0 A few weeks ago, ISO and IEC extended that
sentence to say ". . . and shall notify the guest's National Body = of the
invitation."=C2=A0 The idea behind this is effectively to give veto po= wer to
the national bodies.=C2=A0 If a convenor exercises the right to invite gues= ts
"too often" as interpreted by any particular national body, or if= a
convenor invites someone a national body doesn't like, the requirement =
to notify the guest's national body provides a chance to protest the invitation and apply pressure to stop inviting as many people or
particular people.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the full text of that subclause as it stands t= oday.

"1.12.2 The composition of the working group is defined in the ISO Global Directory (GD) or in the IEC Expert Management System (EMS) as
appropriate. Experts not registered to a working group in the ISO GD or the IEC EMS respectively, shall not participate in its work. Convenors
may invite a specific guest to participate in a single meeting and shall notify the guest=E2=80=99s National Body of the invitation."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I am not happy with the increased crackdown.=C2=A0 Sev= eral SC 22 WGs
depend on being able to work with nonmembers.=C2=A0 However, the rules will=
not be loosened, because they were created out of fear generated by a
past incident of bullying.=C2=A0 The most we can do is be aware of them and=
do the best we can to get our work done while respecting the directives.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Consequently, I would recommend that you continue to i= nvite guests
as you have in the past, but now be aware that you will need to notify
the guests' national bodies, and those national bodies will be looking =
over your shoulder.=C2=A0 You may wish to reduce the number of invitations = of
a particular person, or the frequency of invitations overall, to avoid
attracting too much attention from national bodies.=C2=A0 People can always=
be encouraged to join the WG formally, so that an invitation will not be required.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sorry for the extra hassle.=C2=A0 New rules designed t= o prevent a
single past incident generally have negative consequences.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 David
--00000000000055339405a825adf0--