From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Fri Jun 5 22:05:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id BF77E358ACE; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:05:42 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-oi1-f181.google.com (mail-oi1-f181.google.com [209.85.167.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F623587F1 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:05:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f181.google.com with SMTP id s21so9253056oic.9 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 13:05:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=blV9Mr7AAk/tgvgdPrnxmETU74CHQTJROl8kxeF4r4M=; b=n6kJjdymU2TNyMOfS9Buhyb2m6ADDAl9zKlAlwRxOGp09P8Kj3QRBI7P6OEC2gC4dr DDAniTdGAQT30DImHep8E8+m+Y9xByGF1QwzdkablSJLofZKgTAY0H+ZDXuEnAzwYpiQ hLtY00zcGV/FDGDzUk6N0DWWZ4Sg+buttDCbTVqFmkOHyY30amI+4ZrMViZ1Ra7ipuaQ YHNFhrzBQh6bF2HuC3Cll98YjrpN3WDvE6ZuxtZiX17RD/NxdHYqgjKS2IHsO1K3zX4/ u2XX+bm2TdgYf++KPM4tUkjxuSG1KpwO8RKW8PN3h1hOZmqzN7bHgzlCkh0i9b3wSpxX CNkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=blV9Mr7AAk/tgvgdPrnxmETU74CHQTJROl8kxeF4r4M=; b=n0DMkEWEu6dGF4uXLPRa5Vmv2LvNcBc9J0PnKlLteYgF/0sZ26tSABRkoQm+p7bEf7 TUpPBuDZTzOILydz9vd0f7mExBpp53QNx+Bp3ossn3kLgzrEdIfYY3Y4bJc2swJ5c9GN 2CXUuxUljjTljDjJe4r0fexVaHyOdQ6WZePTF/xfq/ctzTNPSW/uKrG6NdcKLdI1VFfY R3jbqmrbIl4lE8chOEaCfpJGO5iGb0+qPdtDZZdplq1Pw3tuwpGfPuKS1EDK3n91ZiSo c61XZucu2hhr3YoO1htrnwbt27go9C7ALAf6E1ZUFsECPfJkJ60HB4w666hHUMFumn/J sryw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530D5mpatT4rPFK8mUqQONItSiQApaWGAi17geTOwGByYOARNlYC sXewRR07vjdZpKO4YhwagEozA5LpCCUnfdA646I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyyXNFo+wV0mDTE7xFGZGHRrXnmKm75KWZ7JTodknjRwFO51rZqhz9bEZOxuCxG37eTXwpxidJh+jFXfMS0dUc= X-Received: by 2002:aca:cdc5:: with SMTP id d188mr3136881oig.33.1591387540461; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 13:05:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200602173624.B077A45C@mailrelay3.iso.org> <20200602174327.45629358B07@www.open-std.org> <148a6c658c1cab5166d0c67dd77f1f81347dd916.camel@jpl.nasa.gov> <42cbd0f4-3f08-48b3-b8de-81e860446d80@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42cbd0f4-3f08-48b3-b8de-81e860446d80@www.fastmail.com> From: Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:05:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] [EXTERNAL] (SC22WG5.6222) Fwd: [SC22] ISO Gender Action Plan Survey To: General J3 interest list , WG5 List Cc: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiDEjGVydMOtaw==?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk Hi everyone, It is important for this community to discuss and address our principles and values. The discussion itself is not the problem; the tone of some remarks, however, has been problematic and has offended some individuals. I hesitate to say it, but for that reason, at this point it would be best to end the discussion on the mailing list. There have been a number of allegations of code of conduct violations. The ISO code of conduct asks us to try and work out disagreements and issues through frank discussion when possible. However, if that is unsuccessful or impossible, then members may request that the national bodies of the members involved intervene. The US national body, INCITS, has received requests for such intervention. The INCITS Vice President and Executive Board is looking into this matter and will be contacting the individuals involved in the near future (i.e. next week). Because this has been escalated to the next level, I would suggest that we cease this discussion until the alleged conduct violations have been investigated and corrected. On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM Ond=C5=99ej =C4=8Cert=C3=ADk via J3 wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > Please, let's stop having these conversations over email in a public foru= m. > > Email is the absolute worst medium to have these conversations, and with = every email there are more accusations and it increases tensions and it is = getting out of hands. Trust me, I've been guilty of this myself in the past= . > > Here is my proposal how to solve it: let's have a video call, where we di= scuss these issues. I know all of you in person, you are all good people, a= nd I *know* we can have a frank discussion about these issues. Then, after = we can either agree, or agree to disagree, we can write a summary here if n= eeded. > > I will now reach to each of you privately and invite you to a call. > > Ondrej > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Brad Richardson via J3 wrote: > > I can't believe I would have to write this, but at this point it's > > clear I probably should. > > > > What would make any of you feel compelled to complain publicly about > > something so small? How long did it take you to read that email? How > > long would it have taken for you to take the survey? For me it took > > less than five minutes. It's taken me much longer than that just to > > read through these email threads. I'm sure it's taken you even longer > > to write them. > > > > So what are you worried about? That selection of positions on the > > committee might no longer be based solely on merit? They already > > aren't. You have to be a member of an organization willing to pay for > > your participation. That's not merit. And, that discounts the fact that > > having a diverse group has value in itself. If we want Fortran to > > continue to grow as a language and attract new users, we need to > > include as many perspectives as possible. There are studies showing > > that diverse groups are able to innovate more, better consider the > > impacts they have, and grow their audiences more effectively. If we > > want Fortran to continue to be relevant into the future (and I really > > hope we do), it can't be developed solely by a room full of stodgy old > > white men. We need more perspectives. > > > > Are you worried you might feel uncomfortable in a room full of people > > who aren't all just like you? Imagine how the people we're trying to > > reach out to feel. The slightest hint of an effort to try and be more > > inclusive causes a public uproar from the current members? How many > > people have we now run off because of this? We can't even answer that > > question any more because you ran them off. I have worried about > > whether I would be welcomed as a new comer because I didn't have the > > entire standard memorized. And that hasn't been unfounded because I > > tried to add my thoughts to a conversation and was sternly corrected > > when a statement I made had a subtle difference from the actual > > language in the standard. I'm lucky not to have other reasons to have > > felt unwelcome, and to be confident enough to persist through that. I > > can't imagine how others must feel. > > > > Are you worried the committee might become political? There are reasons > > to try and be more inclusive that aren't about politics. This isn't > > about politics. This is about practicality and the benefits of > > diversity. You made it about politics by complaining publicly. > > > > I truly hope the damage done over the last few days isn't irreparable. > > This committee needs to take efforts to be more welcoming and > > inclusive. I hope we can still be successful in that. > > > > Respectfully, > > Brad Richardson > > Making Everything Functional > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > > > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Origina= l Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020 11:07 PM, Gary Klimowicz via J3 > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash via J3 = wrote: > > >> > > >>> This is absurdly irrelevant politics. > > >> > > >> When we are a small part of something big, it can be difficult to > > >> understand the wider context. Please allow me to provide some > > >> perspective. > > >> > > >> ... > > >> > > >> Our most valuable asset is our member organizations and their networ= ks > > >> of technical experts. The success of ISO standards hinges upon the > > >> participation of a diverse stakeholders representative of the entire > > >> global community. We are all responsible for identifying and fixing > > >> representation gaps. > > >> > > >> ISO standards codify processes and technologies vital to human life, > > >> such as food chain management (ISO 22000, [4]), and water > > >> management/sanitation (ISO 24518, [5]). These standards impact all > > >> people, and often disproportionately affect women in developing > > >> countries. If some types of people are underrepresented in standards > > >> development, how can we have confidence that those standards will > > >> work? > > > > > > This. And what Damian and Brian said. And what Steve said. And the ot= her things Bryce said. > > > > > > We have a habit of saying things in J3 in a way that is easily read a= s offensive, hurtful, or dismissive. We cannot fully understand the consequ= ences of how we say things. > > > > > > So we kind of need to cut it out. Myself included. > > > > > > And I took the survey. Data matters. (And while I can't guarantee tha= t the survey will be valid and valuable if I participate, I can guarantee t= hat it won't be if I don't.) > > > > > > Gary > > --=20 Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair CppCon and C++Now Program Chair CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA --