From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Fri Jun 5 03:19:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 4B6E6358AF9; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-oi1-f180.google.com (mail-oi1-f180.google.com [209.85.167.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6563566A9 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:19:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f180.google.com with SMTP id 25so5926653oiy.13 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:19:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ELIby8e3nTb06L7lO+Ldpk0whNuw0vJO1EdI+DXYBXU=; b=Q5Tr1arQX6r/83C2Syv/bo5beoWqUkLSLGpuXDPWfn6euFDN+67Lj1hh9YBXWxNnQ2 KLKe6h9Sylx+waK4ivwNa1JXwDkwSVR7XgCgZ1d2jFV+6c7Oj1Svp9FdfiNV7VJAxpuE 8vbVEiiKaLQduPLZtGuRvMrIRKSYuLiGnMScu6VuGyRJmOjeFyEYwzG6UbmRVL/ZM86z E4HKVMGfg+Zdcwti0R9LENKjXDDHAOh4yaxyKqWt2qV2eQXXMc/2FcBEfwQABAiURCbT D3dFYLo+JF26obfN5dTT214s8trAT2QWuL7+x4+4ni+4wrHNZABmvR+0d4eiQ/7wtTYr aaBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ELIby8e3nTb06L7lO+Ldpk0whNuw0vJO1EdI+DXYBXU=; b=PKk0HFpGo9wBRFYZP3g2MIf2wzCFhFMXfGZUdBREPTPj/W3NOttd42JzTkxdqJINFO 7G/LBlRPazNPm/GLJuxuJRaFix7GhB0731tySfVrMop9drVQVtO9M1bBP/M8GQym8U/v bAg6W7lhtKX5JX2lOvmabTkpceXRE3wmJkKJL+WnUDPa7XwB9+PjxnQsJwr7V0vas5K0 BGJ0+ONf1njA6jWU9oXUqxrSqnZiQlLv+lY4ZLjVFy46avZgUW+0dwXVouxpYgH6D92f Rs25O5dD82JTDjUhQa1l94g74RY1UnOu7Itnw7NfAITEqQwTO9Do6BFNLZVJqvCbxCRg cilw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tPEvg7BzJEG8XHTIUo+YmjhEWtkd/3WmPUs1p5JV+dKHdnUQx LZFciKwlqXIAGNz71m5gXVo1swCgLJasP7Msom8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyUnd3p1IHwEbAygkLXN0rEcWxKi2fr1qcbnISy40PCt6jK0wzFJXkvhHCGDOLBpJTZA1BLNEh93U1WcuBa7uw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4d13:: with SMTP id a19mr447628oib.158.1591319975227; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:19:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200602173624.B077A45C@mailrelay3.iso.org> <20200602174327.45629358B07@www.open-std.org> <20200604170932.DC8BD9DB160@www.open-std.org> <1771AAB6-F5A3-4ACB-92BE-6DB646310051@cray.com> In-Reply-To: <1771AAB6-F5A3-4ACB-92BE-6DB646310051@cray.com> From: Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:19:23 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6228) Fwd: [SC22] ISO Gender Action Plan Survey To: General J3 interest list Cc: David Muxworthy , Bill Long , "sc22wg5@open-std.org" , David Muxworthy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8f70705a74c0dcd" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --000000000000d8f70705a74c0dcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Bill, Attempting to guess people's gender based on name is not an accurate way to get data. If you want to know someone's gender you need to ask. Yes, ISO has a registry, but not everyone who participates in working groups is registered as a technical expert. Not all national bodies have or collect this data, either. Even those who do might not be able to share it because of privacy laws. I agree the survey isn't perfect. But this isn't the right forum to provide feedback on the survey. You can email gender@iso.org to provide any feedback or suggestions. -- Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair CppCon and C++Now Program Chair CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA -- On Thu, Jun 4, 2020, 12:38 Bill Long via J3 wrote: > And, if they were only interested in gender data, they could probably > guess pretty accurately from just looking though the list. I suspect they > were really after the age and years-of-service information. > > > > On Jun 4, 2020, at 12:09 PM, David Muxworthy via J3 < > j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > > > No-one has commented on the fact that self-selecting surveys in any > > case are of dubious value. ISO has a complete register of the experts > > who can take part in ISO committees, all nominated by their national > > bodies. All they have to do to get an accurate picture is to ask each > > national body for the gender statistics for their nominees. > > > > It is almost unbelievably amateurish to write "I thank you in advance > > for sharing this survey with the experts of your TC, SC, PC and/or WG" > > if the results are to have any validity. > > > > David Muxworthy > > > > Bill Long > longb@cray.com > Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support & voice: 651-605-9024 > Bioinformatics Software Development fax: 651-605-9143 > Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/ Suite > 1000/ Bloomington, MN 55425 > > > > --000000000000d8f70705a74c0dcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,

A= ttempting to guess people's gender based on name is not an accurate way= to get data. If you want to know someone's gender you need to ask.

Yes, ISO has a registry, bu= t not everyone who participates in working groups is registered as a techni= cal expert. Not all national bodies have or collect this data, either. Even= those who do might not be able to share it because of privacy laws.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
I agree the survey isn't p= erfect. But this isn't the right forum to provide feedback on the surve= y. You can email gender@iso.org to pr= ovide any feedback or suggestions.


--
B= ryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash
US Programming Language Standards (PL22)= Chair
ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair
CppCon and C++Now Program Chai= r
CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA
--

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020, 12:38 Bill Long via J3 <j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
And, if they were only interested in gender data,= they could probably guess pretty accurately from just looking though the l= ist.=C2=A0 I suspect they were really after the age and years-of-service in= formation.=C2=A0


> On Jun 4, 2020, at 12:09 PM, David Muxworthy via J3 <j3@mail= man.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
>
> No-one has commented on the fact that self-selecting surveys in any > case are of dubious value.=C2=A0 ISO has a complete register of the ex= perts
> who can take part in ISO committees, all nominated by their national > bodies.=C2=A0 All they have to do to get an accurate picture is to ask= each
> national body for the gender statistics for their nominees.
>
> It is almost unbelievably amateurish to write "I thank you in adv= ance
> for sharing this survey with the experts of your TC, SC, PC and/or WG&= quot;
> if the results are to have any validity.
>
> David Muxworthy
>

Bill Long=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longb@cray.com
Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support &=C2=A0 =C2=A0voice:=C2= =A0 651-605-9024
Bioinformatics Software Development=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fax:=C2=A0 651-605-9143
Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/=C2=A0 Suite 1= 000/=C2=A0 Bloomington, MN=C2=A0 55425



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