From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Fri May 1 02:05:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 0A93D9DB116; Fri, 1 May 2020 02:05:07 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-oi1-f180.google.com (mail-oi1-f180.google.com [209.85.167.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42CC3571EF for ; Fri, 1 May 2020 02:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f180.google.com with SMTP id t199so1372629oif.7 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:05:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=brm65sALLIQG3+ncmiqhgarcvJr0GB/QeASrn03O2wY=; b=BW/sCtoy+jD0D9G3GkRCXrfKTYnnmMg9Q9ClhcJYsrdF8tVnDaXpbMqAJVxW9f1xLl MpzMcknL45a3HYhWgs7Q1AKnYVZ1XPcSRLZdQ3zJhQzueKbg8hfZ9kiDb4RCr8OxeZni o2bItQwM5h93BVf20S6PeOzwnwKx8d8EZ0iDnJ2oZMDQ5HTEwleJNDxqCKnyC7LeuVwi LWWVqClOeApQmBNGMXuip6pQ8jkgkwwvnwf+dgNEZHb0vxArsaqrPeEXiFoC/6RDnEHb 1KKh56jXlmq3uVTkHjfEKjdFO5T6+XTlbNLpv7GFJu1wmi/rD2ITYIs2q+SBvvcVtdeM dkTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=brm65sALLIQG3+ncmiqhgarcvJr0GB/QeASrn03O2wY=; b=PLetY6cwb5N/Y1S8k2Uw/o1NC5K8qCmRVzXpqK7LzPeeSxXI/yg6WSx+arfR+izlbM X6+yt639PKxMHXrqnwN2TTnzrgd1lI2+8HlllS3CYCIFf4xbEl0BrKTEqcVziMHLsByi u81fJkKKb6orqXyHULbYLf9EV0Mnhs7qVcBz3gwTOkTjz2vD25TCWXEiZH2GvqM9O6mu fgC4phsiMKhemU8c4TOByOINhKF5l8f4kejQedhXi0MAGlBqpWYvugdWAt8tshibZZPZ ePA4U1aOpTQLcMeVdSctC3EQ8L6wziHHmWCFlj2jxOb3h5ZZL98Fz0Va1Fkmqw+ytonf O0qQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZamile29FK+KoCjHTlGyxfFWquPwmovRfstxKsNM09M8LYxBIt DVR2lRjDR5rQ5ZZE+QRuOz7GN0A+LpULIDE2WN4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL/iubZiNs0knPaf1oLzGL+YLc9PG652ZKJkt7DnNYukcZhESHLDyzwxspaHtnnvi9wHDhrRws0iC8wDlko6uo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:7286:: with SMTP id p128mr1304785oic.158.1588291504954; Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:05:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200428004737.19A4F9DB145@www.open-std.org> <20200428114456.5CCDA3568A1@www.open-std.org> <999548a1-9f82-418c-b8be-1fd87f94d3be@www.fastmail.com> <20200428172340.851A13568A1@www.open-std.org> <20200428195502.E072C3568BB@www.open-std.org> <5a392c04-ddab-46e6-8024-ae89b8658d29@www.fastmail.com> <20200428225409.F33B13587B3@www.open-std.org> <20200429083749.4E7369DB117@www.open-std.org> <20200429151053.9A3643568A1@www.open-std.org> In-Reply-To: <20200429151053.9A3643568A1@www.open-std.org> From: Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:04:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6189) RE: [ukfortran] October meeting visa invitation letter To: General J3 interest list Cc: Bill Long , WG5 List , Malcolm Cohen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 8:10 AM Bill Long via J3 wrote: > Agreed. I would point out that some people have an aversion to, and conc= erns about, products from Microsoft (of which GitHub is one, and Skype ano= ther). Google and Facebook have acquired tarnished reputations as well. = And don=E2=80=99t get the cyber security folks started about ZOOM. > > Also, some countries have an aversion to US facilities involved with nucl= ear weapons (Japan comes to mind, understandably). As an example, we canno= t install a system at (at least parts of) LANL that uses Fujitsu-made proce= ssors. (Unfortunate, since their new ARM chips look very good. Hopefully a= n alternate ARM-SVE vendor will appear.) Ties to Sandia would be similarl= y problematic. However, some large US DoE labs, such as LBNL (Berkeley Lab= ), would be in the clear on this issue. I think it will be quite difficult for people with an aversion to products from particular large tech companies to meaningfully participate in ISO standards. A substantial amount of official ISO/INCITS business is done in Microsoft Word documents, for example. Additionally, the SC22 Secretariat is provided by the US national body and for many years was solely funded by Microsoft. If you've participated in the publication of any ISO programming language in the past decade, the standard you've worked on has been supported by Microsoft. The reality is that if one wants to participate in international standards development, one will often have to work with technologies, companies, and individuals from all across the industry. While I understand and appreciate privacy and security concerns (some people's employers block GitHub or Google service from work), I think that a reasonable degree of flexibility should be expected. While its important to understand who may have limitations in the technologies and organizations they are willing and able to work with, I wouldn't let these limitations affect decision making unless they impact a significant percentage of the active participants. I would encourage us to focus on the concrete limitations that we have today. Are there a substantial number of active members of the Fortran committee who are unable, for any reason, to use GitHub? Google Docs? Other technologies? P.S. Sandia has hosted meetings for various ISO committees in the past, as have a number of countries that have similar types of limitations. The viability of these meetings has always hinged on one thing alone: would there be a quorum at the meeting? If any other criterion is used, you end up in a bad place. --=20 Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair CppCon and C++Now Program Chair CUDA Core C++ Libraries (Thrust, CUB, libcu++) Lead @ NVIDIA --