From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Wed Apr 29 13:31:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id E09E29DB116; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:31:49 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-wm1-f44.google.com (mail-wm1-f44.google.com [209.85.128.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C343566A9 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:31:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f44.google.com with SMTP id u127so1632126wmg.1 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 04:31:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cJBhYO4220FJXIjMLNGQptbuWdaNmCqfvwjGbOXB804=; b=uncb0NZxnLeZ+8+UtFoVm+v9BlcJ5iy6IIWhRF1vaoS3TRO1Od9XiXVWu6QwnxK5LB dDKKvw0GeFVLoiiiKDgmtMv+4TKBdLirFLvcS9ii0vKrrjrNcBrFbQJeuji6GZlXqL35 2BclkOlee3ifDEe3XU+TmlPJHPwQU4XF57pRZQOLNLqqVixuqAQ2DrcG1cT2DBt8eK9z 4P5uRbmziPZAIXpKA/N4dW42KGADJ7swx1Ve19uq3sRzzaMuyeIeuZgZeM91jeuq4sE/ sQsovLkqgXvyNtkKnmM6FZql52RUTz9tfUpz5bRyhwz8FMd+rEeKEg2DD/Q/6hjivog6 SRnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cJBhYO4220FJXIjMLNGQptbuWdaNmCqfvwjGbOXB804=; b=T35EZOWpimsbyYzw97i9FNEybctQ7uPPFl9GMXf/hiDjtM1hh7BhPKc/XPyySC13jU niXSyD92Rdd5O/abKhvyxcIMz7+ukEYeDESxPlgqrgF0lsnw9gGgs8D8sZ9QjkOadwMb wPNDFQNq8qe5dUXlcgXawuqSwZx/xeYXn8mHURFthUZpDlhYx//IGj70QTX7YHxAsywg flyDW/89NFdCa+0nnB87Yg/+uP7z4boOUVuGZ7ju9M8ueVdzAzdR2FReB+qLwB+IOJP5 5HUqsTenE5s3+IR+Rt6UfTZEVSnvhMwcvfyHBiorwQjEX8CQGQ8+Rv+OijdGudfuykGR fKhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ1iCKtkPHixvmiL/CP9Yah82hOjyuUsK9+w1ueoLC0/x8BMi1T KkfkxsYTwgGMYnb1jHWDi7Jyl042Qj2bP9eYySp/ZsYJdh0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL+rDr71jbA/WlnPhEj+SZW3NNFr+Mkv2RyQJZBNwCZc9wEQP9i3nFtOHSM8+Z1AZyLfJoKlID1OvrlGvPXG1U= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:8106:: with SMTP id c6mr2762587wmd.88.1588159908838; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 04:31:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200428004737.19A4F9DB145@www.open-std.org> <20200428114456.5CCDA3568A1@www.open-std.org> <999548a1-9f82-418c-b8be-1fd87f94d3be@www.fastmail.com> <20200428172340.851A13568A1@www.open-std.org> <20200428195502.E072C3568BB@www.open-std.org> <5a392c04-ddab-46e6-8024-ae89b8658d29@www.fastmail.com> <20200428225409.F33B13587B3@www.open-std.org> <20200429083749.4E7369DB117@www.open-std.org> In-Reply-To: <20200429083749.4E7369DB117@www.open-std.org> From: Milan Curcic Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 07:31:37 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6186) RE: [ukfortran] October meeting visa invitation letter To: General J3 interest list Cc: WG5 List , Malcolm Cohen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003682ea05a46c4be1" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --0000000000003682ea05a46c4be1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Malcolm, > Well, **a** community is on GitHub. A substantial one even. > > I'm afraid I don't think this sweeping generalisation is productive, or fair. > Neither is being told we=E2=80=99re not part of The community. You're right. Being a native Slavic speaker, I misuse my articles often, sometimes to disastrous effects. I apologize for minimizing other communities. I didn't mean to do that. GitHub is not a panacea and is not meant to replace live meetings, calls, or even chat. I see it as "better email for developing software and documents". It doesn't even mean to replace all email, but only some. So I don't think doing everything on GitHub is the solution. However for what I think is a significant fraction of committee work in the time between the meetings, GitHub can provide powerful productivity tools. Cheers, Milan On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 4:37 AM Malcolm Cohen via J3 < j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote: > > The community is on GitHub. > > > > Well, **a** community is on GitHub. A substantial one even. > > > > > I'm afraid I don't think this sweeping generalisation is productive, or > fair. > > > > Neither is being told we=E2=80=99re not part of The community. > > > > Now, I don=E2=80=99t think this was the intended meaning of the first pos= ter, but > it was a natural and obvious interpretation, so I understand Anton=E2=80= =99s poor > reaction. Of course the committee has already started to take this =E2=80= =9CGitHub > community=E2=80=9D seriously, and welcomed its input. That welcome is abs= olutely * > *not** being withdrawn. > > > > However, at this point I am not convinced that GitHub should become the > central way that committee work should be done, and I agree with Bill tha= t > switching over to it right away seems more like a revolution than evoluti= on. > > > > > works just fine with teams spread over many timezones > > > > Well, no. it does not work =E2=80=9Cjust fine=E2=80=9D for in-depth discu= ssions the way we > have traditionally done with subgroups. GitHub and all other technologica= l > solutions do not in fact solve the basic timezone issues that Bill pointe= d > out. Such technologies can certainly help, but they cannot do everything, > and furthermore are not =E2=80=9Cneutral=E2=80=9D in their effect =E2=80= =93 not everyone is > comfortable **or effective** with them. > > > > Maybe in the end we will end up doing everything on GitHub, and maybe not= . > But for now, I would prefer that we =E2=80=9Chasten slowly=E2=80=9D. > > > > Cheers, > > -- > > ..............Malcolm Cohen, NAG Oxford/Tokyo. > > > --0000000000003682ea05a46c4be1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Malcolm,

&= gt; Well, *a* community is on GitHub. A substantial one even.=

=C2=A0

> > I'm afraid I don't think this sweeping generalisati= on is productive, or fair.

= =C2=A0

> Neither is being told we=E2=80= =99re not part of The community.


You're right. B= eing a native Slavic speaker, I misuse my articles often, sometimes to disa= strous effects. I apologize for minimizing other communities. I didn't = mean to do that.

GitHub is not a panacea and is no= t meant to replace live meetings, calls, or even chat. I see=C2=A0it as &qu= ot;better email for developing software and documents". It doesn't= even mean to replace all email, but only some. So I don't think doing = everything on GitHub is the solution. However for what I think is a signifi= cant fraction of committee work in the time between the meetings, GitHub ca= n provide powerful productivity tools.

Cheers,
Milan


On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 4:37 AM = Malcolm Cohen via J3 <j3@mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:

> The community is on GitHub.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Well, *a* community is on GitHub. A substantial one even.

=C2=A0

> I'= m afraid I don't think this sweeping generalisation is productive, or f= air.

=C2=A0

Neither is being told we=E2=80=99re not part of The commun= ity.

=C2=A0

Now, I don=E2=80=99t think this was the intended meaning o= f the first poster, but it was a natural and obvious interpretation, so I u= nderstand Anton=E2=80=99s poor reaction. Of course the committee has alread= y started to take this =E2=80=9CGitHub community=E2=80=9D seriously, and we= lcomed its input. That welcome is absolutely *not* being withdrawn.<= u>

=C2=A0

However, at this point I am not convinced that GitHub should be= come the central way that committee work should be done, and I agree with B= ill that switching over to it right away seems more like a revolution than = evolution.

=C2=A0

=

> works just fine with teams spread over many tim= ezones

=C2=A0

Well, no. it does not work =E2=80=9Cjust fine=E2=80=9D f= or in-depth discussions the way we have traditionally done with subgroups. = GitHub and all other technological solutions do not in fact solve the basic= timezone issues that Bill pointed out. Such technologies can certainly hel= p, but they cannot do everything, and furthermore are not =E2=80=9Cneutral= =E2=80=9D in their effect =E2=80=93 not everyone is comfortable *or effe= ctive* with them.

=C2=A0=

Maybe in the end we will end up doing eve= rything on GitHub, and maybe not. But for now, I would prefer that we =E2= =80=9Chasten slowly=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

-- =

..............Malcolm Cohen, NAG Ox= ford/Tokyo.

=C2=A0

--0000000000003682ea05a46c4be1--