From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom9=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Tue Apr 28 19:23:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom9 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom9@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 6D72E3571B7; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:23:40 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com (mail-qk1-f174.google.com [209.85.222.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B31E3566A9 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:23:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id b188so21009952qkd.9 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:23:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stevelionel.com; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=RZlrIztX9w3vLCNIrq1smH7CaSV2WeG2ct4+bxP4lng=; b=0CxGMb41hIFSCo+K1viIrIsx8xkvEvHzN7gVZYedFxNP4eU6cShAfznEqwQHScbAwF VIJaCM4xsnN1B2JA9e3KW37Yh8GgZ2K3uGOzcIMCa29flWnJ15Gs8NOFHOQRGAGvzoU0 rffzpAV7l++/uM061K95g3T+YsxW6V3QuD8nI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=RZlrIztX9w3vLCNIrq1smH7CaSV2WeG2ct4+bxP4lng=; b=WmWAwIccXOt6EvyqQuz5q9eklqurIxuPc1b6AVkXEFZe2KrexeE1eBrdjv3cgPQzj8 IHLz/WYs/h+vD2QbYi3370vv8cD7Y8z4tNY6rRFr7xryifu9QGmnia6le+zDDmX2+Xz9 3yH7If9QIILYo30Q/bK3DuRtLjxOsVZ/PbOU1egMikChhacHwbSZI9N0Jr1OJquvozCr TJfRUtYyNTsOp2MvFVr17VPtiMZ7H/cT2MFSN1jyHQoEKVqDN7dcb9AZVNH6tZfCXGWF filzV74JCPhByB0Qaqm2XNDQVmJ++HZHzsz+0p5qtS6A60KIgG8dj8mIvYhygLctXhqF Sblg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuavPhFrGm4AZmqImHlGv8+RGaOfag9CrIMJQGhRzsveE2+0u9zS uLhPeJK7QrYMRi2w9DQSQk91QzFqm8WIEQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJV9BuhBkV+DHtH7lt89S0XHQHdSlsYSo3oP19RSCk3hOorTpWeqIj27DVHazgiHjO7TigW8w== X-Received: by 2002:a37:9e94:: with SMTP id h142mr27003268qke.56.1588094617347; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([71.241.130.117]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c23sm13769170qka.12.2020.04.28.10.23.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [J3] (SC22WG5.6174) October meeting visa invitation letter To: WG5 List References: <20200428004737.19A4F9DB145@www.open-std.org> <20200428114456.5CCDA3568A1@www.open-std.org> <999548a1-9f82-418c-b8be-1fd87f94d3be@www.fastmail.com> From: Steve Lionel X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:23:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <999548a1-9f82-418c-b8be-1fd87f94d3be@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk On 4/28/2020 12:31 PM, Ondřej Čertík via J3 wrote: > Thanks for this initiative. Having a projector and a telecon capability would be extremely beneficial. I'm not convinced a projector is needed, with presentation sharing. Often a projector is available at WG5 venues - as I wrote earlier I'm not aware that the Las Vegas Residence Inn (J3 venue) has one we can use, but maybe it does (for a fee, I am sure.) What I usually see, when local attendees are watching a projection and remote attendees are watching what is shared,  is that the presenter talks to the room and not to the whole audience, and sometimes points to things on the projection screen leaving the remote viewers clueless. I suppose video can help with that, but that adds complexity. Telecon capability, though, is going to be required. The question is who will pay for it, something I am working on. J3 can buy equipment with funds from meeting fees, but it would be nice if INCITS or even ISO can provide some funding. There's also a logistical issue with the way J3 operates in subgroups that tend to meet together at odd times and then the members go off by themselves to work on papers. That needs a rethink, and I'd love to see some concrete suggestions in this area.  Speaking of which... > Thanks also for the willingness to reevaluate how J3 works. I agree that's needed. If you wouldn't mind, can you please elaborate more what you mean by "time-shifted engagement"? Let's discuss the details. > That was Nathan's term - I took it as meaning getting away from doing the development only at J3 meetings, which is what I have hopes your Github can help with, as I discuss in my latest blog post. It will require a willingness across J3 to change the way we work, and needs to be established collectively. Really this is a J3 thing and not WG5, unless WG5 wants to "take back" technical development of the standard from J3, in which case we have additional issues to deal with, and I don't think that would be productive. There is a great deal to be said, however, for the personal interactions and exchanges of ideas that happen when everyone is together in the same room,and chatting 1-1 in corridors, etc. Physical meetings are more efficient and encourage attendees to devote most of their attention to the standard work at hand. That simply doesn't happen with virtual meetings. But members who want to do the work, even though they're unable to attend in person, should still be able to participate. In my mind, the biggest step we can take is to get work-list papers written between meetings, with tuning by small teams of interested parties, so that when we do meet in person we can get things done faster. We don't need any equipment to do that, just a shift of mindset and a willingness to siphon off some time from "the day job" to make it happen. (I understand, though, that some members simply may not be in a position where they are allowed to devote resources to J3 between meetings.) I'll note that often J3 votes to change or choose among approaches with straw votes, so we can't simply present papers as a "take it or leave it". Again, needs some thought and discussion. Steve P.S. Note that I am following up to the WG5 list where this discussion started. J3 subscribers (the WG5 list forwards to the J3 list) need to remember to replace the J3 list address with WG5 when following up.