From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom8=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Sun Jul 10 06:30:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom8 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom8@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 008003587D0; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 06:30:26 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1949B356F40 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 06:30:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from orsmga003.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.27]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2016 21:30:16 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.28,340,1464678000"; d="scan'208";a="843518990" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by orsmga003.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2016 21:30:16 -0700 Received: from orsmsx151.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.38) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 21:30:16 -0700 Received: from orsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.5.146]) by ORSMSX151.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.226.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 21:30:15 -0700 From: "Whitlock, Stan" To: sc22wg5 Subject: RE: (j3.2006) (SC22WG5.5766) Counter argument to the "slow down" sentiment Thread-Topic: (j3.2006) (SC22WG5.5766) Counter argument to the "slow down" sentiment Thread-Index: AdHaYOB9FGoSF6jTSnWDKFWy6R70Pg== Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 04:30:15 +0000 Message-ID: <4AA982B1265F43408480F737BE12F4D36FC5D359@ORSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-titus-metadata-40: eyJDYXRlZ29yeUxhYmVscyI6IiIsIk1ldGFkYXRhIjp7Im5zIjoiaHR0cDpcL1wvd3d3LnRpdHVzLmNvbVwvbnNcL0ludGVsMyIsImlkIjoiZDAxODk5YzUtOGM1NS00ZTBmLTllYzUtODI3NzJjZWYzZDg3IiwicHJvcHMiOlt7Im4iOiJDVFBDbGFzc2lmaWNhdGlvbiIsInZhbHMiOlt7InZhbHVlIjoiQ1RQX0lDIn1dfV19LCJTdWJqZWN0TGFiZWxzIjpbXSwiVE1DVmVyc2lvbiI6IjE1LjkuNi42IiwiVHJ1c3RlZExhYmVsSGFzaCI6ImZcL0dnbUx5S1FoN2Q4VVgrc1VaWFNGQTZ1dzY0NytvcCsyRm9IZXQ3cmlnPSJ9 x-ctpclassification: CTP_IC x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk What counter argument? You have one unqualified quote. We can only assume= that "all this" refers to enhancing the Fortran Standard. The Fortran customers I have associated with over the last 40 years of comp= iler development have overwhelmingly balked at jumping into new changes. W= e're shipping Intel Fortran 17.0 but have customers still using 15.0 or ear= lier - 2 or more years old. Why? Because it's extremely expensive and sca= ry to validate a new version of the compiler. They don't want to do it eve= ry year just to get new features. And why do vendors still support deleted= and obsolescent features? Because customers don't even know if their prog= rams use these old features but they don't want to take the risk so... "ma= intain everything" is their demand. What about specifying new features in the standard and then waiting for the= vendors to get around to implementing them? I mention PDTs and UDIO! Int= erps on these were filed mostly by vendors as they were trying to figure ou= t how to implement the features. Up until that point, no interps because n= o one found the bugs. The longer a spec sits unimplemented, the more it ro= ts. Any guesses on how long it will take the major vendors of Fortran {there us= ed to be dozens... now how many?} to implement completely the new coarray = TS? Why do you think that F2015 will get implemented enough in the industr= y to make portability a reality any quicker than F90 or F2003 or F2008? Too many new features in the standard slow down development - that's what w= e have seen. It will continue to be true. /Stan PS: "Dare Mighty Things" is different from "Dare Too Many Things". WG5's = motto needs to be "Dare a Few Mighty Things". -----Original Message----- From: j3-bounces@mailman.j3-fortran.org [mailto:j3-bounces@mailman.j3-fortr= an.org] On Behalf Of Van Snyder Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2016 6:05 PM To: sc22wg5 Subject: (j3.2006) (SC22WG5.5766) Counter argument to the "slow down" senti= ment In a message on comp-fortran-90, a correspondent made this remark: Unless and until the pace of change can be accelerated and newer and better features can be introduced quickly and made available, keep in mind this all appears rather moot for industry. I understand the part about "and made available" depends upon available res= ources, and each vendor's priorities. But if we delay specifying new featu= res, they don't get implemented at all, rather than being implemented slowl= y and at different times by each vendor. I prefer to have the specs laid d= own in the standard, not waiting in the wings until every vendor agrees the= feature would be near the top of their individual customer-base priority l= ist. I work for an organization whose motto is "Dare Mighty Things." If we don'= t dare anything, we don't accomplish anything.