From owner-sc22wg5+sc22wg5-dom8=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Thu Mar 5 21:29:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom8 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom8@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 13A453585FC; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:29:26 +0100 (CET) Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org X-Greylist: delayed 619 seconds by postgrey-1.34 at www5.open-std.org; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 21:29:25 CET Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD98356942 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:29:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2015 12:19:02 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,348,1422950400"; d="p7s'?scan'208,217";a="687545778" Received: from orsmsx106.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.133]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2015 12:19:02 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx113.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.116.7) by ORSMSX106.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 12:19:02 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.10.100]) by FMSMSX113.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.13.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 12:19:01 -0800 From: "Lionel, Steve" To: WG5 Subject: User observations on PDTs Thread-Topic: User observations on PDTs Thread-Index: AdBXgPvr8Re1ZV/IRGKieqzmUF9yDA== Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 20:19:01 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.253.54.21] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01C8_01D05757.B50E9F30" MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk ------=_NextPart_000_01C8_01D05757.B50E9F30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_01C9_01D05757.B50E9F30" ------=_NextPart_001_01C9_01D05757.B50E9F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the recent J3 meeting I mentioned that Intel had several customers very interested in PDTs and who were looking for better support of them as well as further features. A couple of members asked me for more details, so I posed the question and got this response which is a good summary. (Also follow the link for more.) I think IanH's (Ian Harvey) comments in this topic (https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/topic/542336) summarize nicely many of our motivations for using PDTs, especially what he says in Quote #12. One can say the solutions we're currently offering to our consumers are very close to his PositionAlloc example, but the typical use cases by our customers are such we can be in PositionLen situation i.e., most of the data dimensions of objects are fixed states and one often does not need the flexibility offered by allocatable objects. As mentioned by IanH, "length type parameters are just awesome." So we're considering a rewrite of some of our code to transition from "PositionAlloc" to "PositionLen". Note if PDTs had become available much earlier in the Fortran 2003 implementation cycle in Intel Fortran, then we would have started considering it for our code design much sooner and a lot of our code would have been developed using PDTs in the first place, especially with use of the length parameter. In addition, one other area where we're looking PDTs is to use kind parameters in the implementation of "abstract calculus" (example reference: Scientific Software Design book by Rouson et al. you mention in your Dr Fortran blog) in some of our core numerical libraries with both double precision (real64 and c_double from iso_fortran_env, iso_c_binding intrinsics) and quadruple precision (real132 from iso_fortran_env) arithmetic in mind. We hope to start investigating how we might benefit from quadruple precision computations in certain "numerically sensitive" sections of our simulations without having to rewrite much code. Albeit this is in very early stages and there are a lot of compiler improvements we're waiting for, but we're excited at the prospect of using kind parameter facility too. So the belief that PDTs are not all that useful is incorrect. Once robust implementations of PDTs become widespread in compilers, it can become very useful and if the standard can be further improved to facilitate generic programming (e.g., not requiring include files to handle kind parameter scenarios or being able to specify some limits on the type parameters, etc), PDTs can become even more powerful. So I feel the standard-bearers should be looking to further improve this feature rather than leaving it as-is. Steve Lionel Intel Developer Support Merrimack, NH ------=_NextPart_001_01C9_01D05757.B50E9F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At the recent J3 meeting I mentioned that Intel had = several customers very interested in PDTs and who were looking for = better support of them as well as further features. A couple of members = asked me for more details, so I posed the question and got this response = which is a good summary. (Also follow the link for = more.)

 

I think IanH's (Ian Harvey) comments in this topic = (https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/topic/542336) summarize nicely = many of our motivations for using PDTs, especially what he says in Quote = #12.   One can say the solutions we're currently offering to = our consumers are very close to his PositionAlloc example, but the = typical use cases by our customers are such we can be in PositionLen = situation i.e., most of the data dimensions of objects are fixed states = and one often does not need the flexibility offered by allocatable = objects.  As mentioned by IanH, "length type parameters are = just awesome."   So we're considering a rewrite of some = of our code to transition from "PositionAlloc" to = "PositionLen".  Note if PDTs had become available much = earlier in the Fortran 2003 implementation cycle in Intel Fortran, then = we would have started considering it for our code design much sooner and = a lot of our code would have been developed using PDTs in the first = place, especially with use of the length parameter.  =

 

In addition, one other area where we're looking PDTs = is to use kind parameters in the implementation of "abstract = calculus" (example reference: Scientific Software Design book by = Rouson et al. you mention in your Dr Fortran blog) in some of our core = numerical libraries with both double precision (real64 and c_double from = iso_fortran_env, iso_c_binding intrinsics) and quadruple precision = (real132 from  iso_fortran_env) arithmetic in mind.  We hope = to start investigating  how we might benefit from quadruple = precision computations in certain "numerically sensitive" = sections of our simulations without having to rewrite much code.  = Albeit this is in very early stages and there are a lot of compiler = improvements we're waiting for, but we're excited at the prospect of = using kind parameter facility too.

 

So the = belief that PDTs are not all that useful is incorrect.  Once robust = implementations of PDTs become widespread in compilers, it can become = very useful and if the standard can be further improved to facilitate = generic programming (e.g., not requiring include files to handle kind = parameter scenarios or being able to specify some limits on the type = parameters, etc), PDTs can become even more powerful.  So I feel = the standard-bearers should be looking to further improve this feature = rather than leaving it as-is.

 

 

Steve = Lionel

Intel Developer = Support

Merrimack, = NH

 

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