From owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Thu Dec 11 15:42:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc22wg5-dom7 Delivered-To: sc22wg5-dom7@www2.open-std.org Received: by www2.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id E4023CA3439; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:42:50 +0100 (CET) X-Original-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Delivered-To: sc22wg5@open-std.org Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com (e1.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.141]) by www2.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A1FC178E6 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:42:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id mBBEg7dP032441 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:07 -0500 Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (d01av01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.215]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.1) with ESMTP id mBBEglug188406 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:47 -0500 Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id mBBEgkcW003879 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:46 -0500 Received: from d25ml04.torolab.ibm.com (d25ml04.torolab.ibm.com [9.26.6.105]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBBEgj4n003831 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:45 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20081210214851.538B2C178E1@www2.open-std.org> References: <20081127193527.EF00DC178D9@www2.open-std.org> <20081210190834.04BE0C178E6@www2.open-std.org> <20081210201343.D356EC178E6@www2.open-std.org> <20081210214851.538B2C178E1@www2.open-std.org> To: sc22wg5@open-std.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: (j3.2006) (SC22WG5.3816) [ukfortran] Ballot on the technical content of the TR X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.0.1 HF105 April 10, 2008 Message-ID: From: Jim Xia Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:43 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D25ML04/25/M/IBM(Release 7.0.3FP1|February 24, 2008) at 12/11/2008 09:42:45, Serialize complete at 12/11/2008 09:42:45 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0050D09F8525751C_=" Sender: owner-sc22wg5@open-std.org Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0050D09F8525751C_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" j3-bounces@j3-fortran.org wrote on 12/10/2008 04:48:47 PM: > [image removed] > > (j3.2006) (SC22WG5.3816) [ukfortran] Ballot on the technical contentof the TR > > Aleksandar Donev > > to: > > sc22wg5 > > A few vendors also does not have type information, which is also > required to be carried around by BIND(C) routines in the TR. Think > of "TYPE(*), DIMENSION(:)" and how that would be passed. This is also one of the things I don't like of this TR: to have TYPE(*) mixed with descriptors. It breaks the TKR matching rule in Fortran for no good reason. But of course, I prefer if > compilers put type/rank info into the descriptor, based on the > actual---much safer and easier to use. Many vendors do have type and rank info in the descriptor. But again descriptors are sort of "compiler internal structures" that meant to be used by compilers only, not for regular users to play with. Once you allow users to lay their hands on them, they're no longer safe (from compiler point of view). I wouldn't imagine the normal users have sufficient information as how compiler uses the descriptors internally, and I don't think they should know either. I > hardly think anything I say will make a difference---people usually > have a pre-determined mind about this, just like those oldies that > say "don't use assumed-shape arrays" have made their mind and will > never change it... I agree here. Cheers, Jim Xia RL Fortran Compiler Test IBM Toronto Lab at 8200 Warden Ave, Markham, On, L6G 1C7 Phone (905) 413-3444 Tie-line 313-3444 email: jimxia@ca.ibm.com D2/YF7/8200 /MKM --=_alternative 0050D09F8525751C_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
j3-bounces@j3-fortran.org wrote on 12/10/2008 04:48:47 PM:

> [image removed]
>
> (j3.2006) (SC22WG5.3816) [ukfortran] Ballot on the technical contentof the TR
>
> Aleksandar Donev
>
> to:
>
> sc22wg5
>


> A few vendors also does not have type information, which is also
> required to be carried around by BIND(C) routines in the TR. Think
> of "TYPE(*), DIMENSION(:)" and how that would be passed.

This is also one of the things I don't like of this TR: to have TYPE(*) mixed with descriptors.  It breaks the TKR matching rule in Fortran for no good reason.


                                      But of course, I prefer if
> compilers put type/rank info into the descriptor, based on the
> actual---much safer and easier to use.


Many vendors do have type and rank info in the descriptor.  But again descriptors are sort of "compiler internal structures" that meant to be used by compilers only, not for regular users to play with.  Once you allow users to lay their hands on them, they're no longer safe (from compiler point of view).  I wouldn't imagine the normal users have sufficient information as how compiler uses the descriptors internally, and I don't think they should know either.


                                                                    I
> hardly think anything I say will make a difference---people usually
> have a pre-determined mind about this, just like those oldies that
> say "don't use assumed-shape arrays" have made their mind and will
> never change it...
I agree here.


Cheers,

Jim Xia

RL Fortran Compiler Test
IBM Toronto Lab at 8200 Warden Ave, Markham, On, L6G 1C7
Phone (905) 413-3444  Tie-line 313-3444
email: jimxia@ca.ibm.com
D2/YF7/8200 /MKM
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